Anyone else miss Dispel Magic?

[pawsplay]

I don't necessarily think it means we can't play characters like our favorite fantasy heroes, but we shouldn't always expect to do the same things that those characters do.

Then what's the dookie-doo point? I've got a whole stack of RPGs that do shapeshifting just fine. Why is D&D 3.5/possibly 4e defective in this regard?

 

[Shroomy]

Back to dispel magic:

It seems to me that it is lacking one-third of its function. It can get rid of conjurations and zones, but what about harmful spells such as charms, curses, etc.? Heck, what about buffing spells?

I presume they've covered this with other spells (break enchantment, et. al.), but it seems weird that you can't dispel the magic of a spell that's cast on a person.

There's definitely a way to remove curses (see the Bralani eladrin 4e stats), but I"m assuming it is some sort of ritual. Charms are probably removed by a break enchantment type spell. I doubt you can dispell buffs at all.

 

[Incenjucar]

Then what's the dookie-doo point? I've got a whole stack of RPGs that do shapeshifting just fine. Why is D&D 3.5/possibly 4e defective in this regard?

Exception-based design does not lend itself to all-inclusive shape shifting.

I expect we'll get something more like the Psionic "summon" spells.

 

[Terramotus]

It's actually not even the ability to shapeshift into anything out of any of the sourcebooks that breaks the game. That's powerful, sure, but alone, as long as the monsters are fairly reasonably rated for challenge rating, and if the duration isn't all day, it's not a big deal. The problem is the ability to stack parts of the monster's stats with your own existing christmas tree of bonuses - Natural AC stacking with everything, including your enhancement bonus to natural AC, Armor bonus, Deflection bonus, Insight bonus, Unnamed bonuses, etc. If you do enough research, you can create a monster.

Theoretically, the loss of the christmas tree of bonuses in 4E should account for breaking a lot of that down. Make it a daily power with an encounter long duration, and there you go. Some good wording of the spell and typing of abilities should allow any totally game-breaking abilities to be excluded. From that point, as long as they've done a reasonable job of rating the challenge of the monsters, nothing too game-breaking should ensue. The GM is always free to ban forms at his table. As to the time factor, the rule could simply be the way it is at my table: if you don't have a stat block with your bonuses properly factored in with the new form handy you can't change into it.

But all of that goes against the idea of the aesthetic of simplification and requiring little prep time for 4E. Furthermore, the fact that WotC believes that additional sourcebooks provide a huge power boost to the shapeshifter speaks volumes of their lack of desire to change their production process so that splatbooks are vetted better and don't contain hugely unbalanced options, or so that errata which fixes major problems comes out in a timely manner. Which might make sense from a business perspective - the current system is profitable for them. Not only that, but well-worded spells and typed abilities are just plain hard to do. When that many people are banging on your system, it's tough to think of everything ahead of time. Summoning is in the same boat.

So, ultimately, the choice to nerf shapeshifting and summoning is somewhere on a continuum On one end, this is a great decision based on sound business principles and self-knowledge of what they can and can't do properly given their deadlines. On the other end, it's designer laziness, taking the easy way out by just not attempting the parts that are hard.

Personally, I fall towards the designer laziness end of the spectrum. I have no doubt that they think the problem is insurmountable, but any problem is insurmountable when you refuse to make the changes required to fix it. It's really really tough to lose weight, for example, if you refuse to change your eating habits. Not only that, but my feeling is that I don't pay a company for RPG rules for them to tell me that something is too hard to make work so they didn't try. I pay them for rules that work and do the things I want them to.

But I'll wait for the finished product to pass final judgment. And anyway, maybe on later supplements they'll get it working.

 

[Merlin the Tuna]

Really? Because I've run a two year long 3.5 game including a Master of Many Forms, two wizards, and a polymorphing sorcerer and I have not found it to be a problem. Currently my PCs are level 13-14.

Waitwaitwait. How does DMing a group that focuses entirely on shapeshifting not indicate that shapeshifting is stupidly powerful and all-inclusive? His point was that Polymorph is stupidly powerful. Your counterpoint is apparently that it's so potent that every single one of your players has decided to use it as a primary character focus. I... don't follow.

 

[pawsplay]

Waitwaitwait. How does DMing a group that focuses entirely on shapeshifting not indicate that shapeshifting is stupidly powerful and all-inclusive? His point was that Polymorph is stupidly powerful. Your counterpoint is apparently that it's so potent that every single one of your players has decided to use it as a primary character focus. I... don't follow.

You are misunderstanding. I said it included, not is composed of. The current lineup is a dwarf scout, a human wizard, a goliath cleric, and an elven duskblade. One wizard and the Master of Many Forms died, and the sorcerer's player left the group.

 

[Lanefan]

Polymorph isn't so bad if you just put a few logical restraints on it:

1. You cannot polymorph or shapeshift into something you have never seen. (reading about it in a book, seeing an illusion of it, or hearing about it in a story doesn't count)
2. You can only willingly change your own form (range = self). Any attempt to change the form of another is considered baleful and treated as such. (the 1e system shock mechanic is *really* useful here!)

How hard is that?

As for this idea of WotC taking out suboptimal choices, how boring.

Lanefan

 

[small pumpkin man]

Polymorph isn't so bad if you just put a few logical restraints on it:

1. You cannot polymorph or shapeshift into something you have never seen. (reading about it in a book, seeing an illusion of it, or hearing about it in a story doesn't count)
2. You can only willingly change your own form (range = self). Any attempt to change the form of another is considered baleful and treated as such. (the 1e system shock mechanic is *really* useful here!)

How hard is that?

As for this idea of WotC taking out suboptimal choices, how boring.

Lanefan

Limiting powerful abilities by fluff things like "have to have seen it" does nothing to limit true powergamers since they'll just write up a three page background for why their 5,000 year old Necropolitan with maxed knowledge skills who've seen everything, ever is the perfect character for this particular campaign. It only exacerbates the gap between power gamers and character players, exactly the kind of thing I'm glad 4e is reigning in.

phb2 druids and complete mage polymorph spells however work fine.

 

[pawsplay]

Limiting powerful abilities by fluff things like "have to have seen it" does nothing to limit true powergamers since they'll just write up a three page background for why their 5,000 year old Necropolitan with maxed knowledge skills who've seen everything, ever is the perfect character for this particular campaign.

Really? As a DM, I am no under no obligation to allow such a character in the first place. Heck, I might not even have Necropolitans, and if I do, they may not be 5000 years old. Second, even if I do, it's up to me to say whether they've actually seen everything. Third, it's up to me to decide what there is to see. If there are no War Trolls in my campaign, you can't have seen one to polymorph into them. One of my players asked me what they can use; I said, "Anything in the MM, and anything else you can justify to me."

Let's say I do allow anything, anywhere, uncritically. So what? Fundamentally, we're talking about a natural AC boost, some reach, some natural attacks, and some movement modes. There are other spells with vastly more significant effects.

 

[Pistonrager]

Since this thread is now about polymorph I have 2 things to say...

1. Polymorph is Broken ONLY if the person using it is both unrestricted and a douche.

2. Polymorph's potential power grows with every monster released.(see 1.)



Examples... Hydra... Destrachen... War troll...