Anyone else not feel "the grind"

[MacMathan]

Nope no real grind issues here. Just loving it especially since I got to be a player recently.

 

[MortalPlague]

I'll add my voice here... I've played a whole bunch of 4th edition, and I've only felt the grind rarely. The biggest culprit has always been dice luck, with poor encounter design coming in a far second.

 

[Keenath]

Basically, yes. He has about 8 force powers plus he is a blaster expert and a pilot/gunner.

This is a lot more options than even seventh level DND (the highest we got) with: 2 At Will, 3 Encounter, and 4 Dailies.

So he's complaining that D&D cuts him down to MERELY six unique actions per combat.

My heart bleeds.

 

[KarinsDad]

So he's complaining that D&D cuts him down to MERELY six unique actions per combat.

My heart bleeds.

Level one is ~2.3 unique actions per round. 2 At Wills plus 1 Encounter (0.125 actions per round in a 8 round encounter) plus maybe a racial encounter and a daily (0.025 actions with 5 encounters per day, 8 rounds per encounter).

Level seven is only slightly better at ~2.6 unique actions per round. 2 At Wills plus 3 Encounter (0.375 actions per round in a 8 round encounter) plus maybe a racial encounter and 4 dailies (0.025 actions with 5 encounters per day, 8 rounds per encounter). Maybe a little more with magic items.

More or less, the player has a choice of basically 3 things to do on an average round and 2 of those are the same two over and over again.

Hold me back. 3 whooping choices.


Once the PC's encounter attack power is used at first level, he is down to 2 actions At Will Power #1 or At Will Power #2. Sure a few classes can charge or some such, but that too is extremely limited. Grab? Doesn't happen because escape is so easy. Trip? Doesn't exist.

The game has dummied down to "Use At Will power #1 or Use At Will power #2" for the vast majority of rounds in levels 1 through 5+. All spell casters feel like Fighters.

So, I cannot help it that this is sufficent for you. Some people enjoy more complex tactical interactions than which one of three actions to do this round. Even MtG has more choices than that.

Note: Before the plethora of "they have a lot of choices" posts show up, Encounter and Daily powers are extremely limited. Either they are not used in order to save them (not much choice there), or they are used and are no longer available. Either way, they are extremely limited choices and not used in the majority of rounds. The majority of rounds are At Will #1 or At Will #2. Sorcerers and Psions could mix and match a lot of powers. Not just the same two over and over again.


Also, there are other issues for him than just the number of different type actions.

There are virtually no spell durations in 4E. For some people who enjoyed buffing their PCs, that's gone. Forget it. The vast majority of buffs last until the end of the PC's next turn.

Illusions? Nope. Summoning that's worthwhile? Nope. Scrolls to backfill spells and allow for more choices? Nope.

The game used to feel personal. Now it feels a lot more like Monopoly. A set of mechanical rules. Limited choices. Limited durations. Limited spells. Not much difference between magic and martial. It feels more like a board game now. Even Dragons are now just big damage machine brutes. No magic.

A lot of the choices and flavor is gone.

Just because that is sufficient for some people does not mean that it's sufficient for everyone. And, rightfully so.

So, go bleed somewhere else.

 

[keterys]

I think the game would be a lot stronger if all characters had 3 at-wills base. Yes, some classes would need to have more than 2 at-will choices. They should have in the first place. Give the human a 1st-level encounter power extra instead of an at-will and call it a day, at least for heroic tier.

I never really start games below 3rd level, myself... I just think the 2nd encounter and the utility to spice things up are too important. The latest game I started at 7th level and that's even better for action variety but I think it's a lot more difficult on the players to come up to speed on their characters at that point - like the first couple combats were a lot more dangerous than they needed to be, but they did a lot better in the 2nd session so I think things are starting to click.

Edit: Thinking back on Star Wars, I have to say that 4E is _soooooooooooooooooooo_ much better than it for having relevant actions from the play I did of it. The only way to escape that is to play a Jedi... you could actually have something similar in 4e with feats that let you alter at-wills and spin your encounter or daily options a bit, though. Also dailies more like the wardens or the summons that have multiple things in one power. So, you could probably pull a 4E something that works better for him if he's willing to play Star Wars.

 

[Pale Jackal]

I just began a new campaign with people who are new to RPGs. I had them hit level 2 after the first two fights, and I think I'll bump them to three at the start of the next session. Then, they'll level every session or so until level 7, where it'll slow down a bit to every two sessions or so.

As for grind? Hit it a bit in the third and last fight of the session. I think it was primarily due to poor encounter design on my part. A high level encounter, combined with some intelligent use of terrain... terrain which I didn't intend to be used (which led to several monsters unable to get to the PCs for a while), and the biggest, baddest monster being immobilized for the vast majority of the fight by some gluepots (and unlucky saves) off a dead elite kobold slinger. He chucked rocks from a nearby pile of rubble, but I would've liked to use his push abilities. So, because of all the above, several melee PCs were reduced to ranged throw attacks.

 

[Rel]

So, I cannot help it that this is sufficent for you. Some people enjoy more complex tactical interactions than which one of three actions to do this round. Even MtG has more choices than that.

Suffice it to say that my experience with the game has been vastly different from this. Even at low levels. Even at 1st level.

Even if I assume for just a second that the only possible choices they have available are one of their At Wills or their Encounter power, there are still many other things they have to decide. "Where do I move? Can I gain Combat Advantage? Who should I Mark/Quarry/Curse? Which enemy am I going to attack? Am I so wounded that I need to consider taking my Second Wind?" etc.

Then add in the fact that there are often excellent uses for their skills each round. These options are too many to list but I see them used all the time. If I have taken the effort to make the tactical environment an interesting one then this becomes even more of an option. There are things to climb and leap over. There are traps or locks to be dealt with. There are things to knock over and swing from. The list goes on.

An interesting tactical environment also makes other combat options more appealing. When that enemy is standing next to a cliff or the railing of a ship then Bull Rush is starting to look like a pretty cool idea. Charge is a great way for slower combatants to get into the battle and still get an attack in that round. Again, there are plenty of other options here than the At Will/Encounter powers.

And once again, none of that makes mention of other powers that come from the race or class of the PC. Dragonborn Breath and the various Channel Divinity powers are extremely common in my games and those all started right from Level 1.

 

[Storminator]

Just checking my 3rd level cleric, I have 12 power cards. 4 are Dailies, Channel Divinity gives 2 options, and I can charge, throw a hammer, trigger a Second Wind with a heal check... stabilize the dying with a heal check (not that it ever comes up!)... and my favorite action "provide flanking for the rogue."

There's a dozen things I can do every fight.

PS

 

[KarinsDad]

Suffice it to say that my experience with the game has been vastly different from this. Even at low levels. Even at 1st level.

...

And once again, none of that makes mention of other powers that come from the race or class of the PC. Dragonborn Breath and the various Channel Divinity powers are extremely common in my games and those all started right from Level 1.

The powers you mention are nearly all encounter powers and situational dependent.

Many skills are nearly non-existent. As an example, how many people actually try Intimidate in combat? Disarm Trap? Detect Magic?

The maneuvers you mention typically only apply to melee combatants. In many parties, that's typically 40% or less of the PCs. What good is Bullrushing a foe 90+% of the time? Sure, if he is standing next to a pit or cliff or hazard, but how often does that really happen?

Based on situation, the game really has few options. Many options are not viable in a given situation, or use up a resource. The Fighter cannot charge foe #2 without giving an Opportunity Attack to foe #1 that he is engaged with already.

If a PC is in melee, is he really going to try to shift away and then swing away on a rope? And even if he does, he did not get an attack that round and how many rounds is he going to do this?

It's one thing to list the 12 things a PC can do. It's another to realize that based on the situation (including which powers have already been used), that there really are only 2 or 3 or maybe 4 good choices available at any given moment in time.

Are you being subjective with your experiences, or objective?

How often is Turn Undead really applicable?


Here's a challenge for you. List the actions that the PCs do in your next 3 encounters. Let's analyze them for percentages of At Wills, Encounters, Dailies, skills, maneuvers, etc. Don't tell the players that you are doing this so as to not skew the results.

 

[Nail]

Many skills are nearly non-existent. As an example, how many people actually try Intimidate in combat? Disarm Trap? Detect Magic?

Whoa, whoa, whoa!

#1) The "Intimidate cheese" was one of the first system holes my friends and I discovered when introduced to 4e! If you've got the score and your opponent is bloodied, there's little reason not to use it. Instant win! the first party I ran through KotS intimidated Irontooth, frex.

#2) Traps are an integral part of 4e combat now. Using your Thievery skill to disarm a trap is a great idea!

#3) Detect Magic...is not something I care about. True enough. But using knowledge skills to know things about the enemy is plenty valuable.

#4)...and what about the physical skills? Stealth, Atheltics, Acrobatics...these all can be used in combat to great effect. (I think lots of players don't think of these, though, since they don't say "gain +2 to your next attack" or "save ends" in their descriptions. )

What good is Bullrushing a foe 90+% of the time? Sure, if he is standing next to a pit or cliff or hazard, but how often does that really happen?

As you know: entirely DM dependent. I will point out, though, that the model adventure in the DMG has tons of pits to shove people into.

Based on situation, the game really has few options. Many options are not viable in a given situation, or use up a resource.

I agree, in principle.

But much of this is dependent on the DM in practice. I know that one of my DMs really wants us to use "cool moves" to make the encounter dynamic and fun. I'll wager that many DM want that, but don't say it often enough for it to penetrate our (the player's) thick skulls.