Anyone else not feel "the grind"

[Nail]

Do you? Really? Could you do me a favor and write down what powers you do use for your next 4 or 5 encounters?

Sure! (That many encounters takes us a month playing RL, but that's another matter....)

Earthshock (a Warlord is not a defender, so should not have multiple foes around him too often, I suspect that this power does not occur early in encounters and is not typically an option then)

It's used every encounter. Every. Encounter. It rocks. I can't tell you how often I've been able to set up sneak attacks or free hurt friendlies with it.

Second Wind (not used if not needed, almost never used early in an encounter)

Very true. This happens near the end, if at all.

Inspiring Word (not only situational, but nearly must use in the situations where it is called for, fellow players might get upset if the player does NOT use these, so is it really much of an option?)

Huh. Interesting point. In this group, the players really trust each other, so if I let them get well into bloodied, they know there's a good reason.

The point is that you have seven encounter powers. But, how many Standard Action Encounter attacks do you have? 4. If the encounter goes beyond 4 rounds, you are more or less (unless you do a lot of Charges or something) forced to rely on using your At Will powers or using Daily powers.

Sure.

So, the interesting question becomes: In a 5 encounter day, how many standard actions are At Wills, Encounters, Dailies, or some other At Will (like a Charge MBA) for your PC?

Unfortunately, both the games I play in have *never* had 5 encounter days.

But to your broader question: I *think* that my Warlord PC doesn't use his At-Wills all that much. ...But I'll try to keep track of it. My broader point is that my PC doesn't feel at all "trapped" or repetitive. There's lots of interesting options and tactical choices beyond "use best At-Will".

 

[KarinsDad]

It's used every encounter. Every. Encounter. It rocks. I can't tell you how often I've been able to set up sneak attacks or free hurt friendlies with it.

Of course.

My point about options is not that the players do not eventually get to use them, even in every encounter.

My point is that there are many rounds where the options do not effectively exist because of the situation.

For example, do you really use Earthshock in round one if you come up to melee against a single foe (shy of a solo encounter)? Or do you wait until you can get two or more opponents within range of it?

 

[Rel]

KD I'm not trying to be argumentative with you but I guess I just don't get your point.

It feels to me like you are saying, "Well sure you may have 100 tools but you don't really have options because every time you need to turn a phillips head screw you still HAVE to reach for the phillips head screwdriver." That may in fact be true. But I still have 100 tools.

Nonetheless I don't even think that is how most combats play out. Different people prioritize different things differently. Given the exact same situation one player might think that he needs to run up and attack the bad guy that threatens his downed friend. Another might think that he needs to heal himself so he'll be alive next round to take an action. A third might think it imperitive that he heal the downed friend. And a fourth might want to do something else entirely.

I just came from our game session and I can say definitively that there is no sense of "grind". They are just not using the same powers over and over. They are not bored. They are not just "waiting for it to be over". And yet I still hear people complain about these being problems all the time. I can only come to one conclusion:

I am just a completely awesome GM.

 

[Henry]

I can only come to one conclusion:

I am just a completely awesome GM.

Well, DUH!

Water's wet, too, just so's you know.

 

[CubeKnight]

Well, DUH!

Water's wet, too, just so's you know.

Great, now you ruined it for me!
*reports for spoilers*

 

[KarinsDad]

Whoa, whoa, whoa!

#1) The "Intimidate cheese" was one of the first system holes my friends and I discovered when introduced to 4e! If you've got the score and your opponent is bloodied, there's little reason not to use it. Instant win! the first party I ran through KotS intimidated Irontooth, frex.

If the DM plays within the boundaries he is given, it is not nearly as cheesy as it seems on the surface.

It can work at low levels.

At higher levels, it requires a special magic item and possibly the Skill Focus feat to get it to even quasi work except for a few classes (Paladin, Warlock, Bard, and Sorcerer) or builds.

Level 1: Chaladin with 18 Cha needs a 14 to succeed against a same level foe. Against a foe 3 levels higher, he needs a 17. (5 more if the Paladin does not share a language with the creature, 2 less if the Paladin is Dragonborn or has some other bonus to intimidate like an FR regional bonus).

Level 15: Same Chaladin with 22 Cha needs a 19 to succeed against a same level foe. Against a foe 3 levels higher, he needs a 22.

Level 25: Same Chaladin with 25 Cha needs a 23 to succeed against a same level foe. Against a foe 3 levels higher, he needs a 26. He would need to explicitly take the +6 Iron or Spite or Screaming Armor and the Skill Focus feat to have any reasonable chance of success (shy of his allies doing Aid Another).


Classes like Fighter would have a real difficult time getting this to work, even though Intimidate is on their class skill list because it is unlikely that they will have a good starting Charisma, nor would they bump Charisma.


Intimidate also works just as well against the PCs as it does against monsters. In fact, it works better most of the time. So, a DM should feel justified to use it against the Paladin (or a different low Will PC), just like the Paladin uses it against monsters. And it's debatable as to if a PC is healed whether he is no longer intimidated. Plus, a DM is justified in stating that a creature immune to fear is also immune to intimidate (it does not have the fear keyword, but fear is what intimidate is all about, granted, there are few such monsters). And, the DC does not have to be Will +10. The skills states that the DM can make it anything he wants. So, he is justified in giving a bonus to lower level mooks that have a strong leader (or whatever).

Plus, about 1 monster in 4 in the MM have the skill. So, if a PC intimidates a monster to surrender, some monsters can intimidate it to start fighting again.


So sure, it can work for some classes. It just doesn't seem to show up a lot (at least in our games) because of its limited chance of success (without the second feat). For example, our PC Rogue has the skill at level 2 at +9 (Tiefling Rogue with 16 Cha). His chance of success with a same level foe is 30% (he needs a 15). Higher level foes are even harder. Since it takes up a Standard Action, it's more of a last ditch effort.

Can a group of PCs use up a lot of resources (Intimidate PC takes Linguist feats and Skill Focus, re-rolls from abilities or powers, etc.) to make this work often? Sure. Does it happen in a lot of games? Maybe. Maybe not. Probably not a lot in most games.

 

[Keenath]

I never really start games below 3rd level, myself... I just think the 2nd encounter and the utility to spice things up are too important.

After the first time, sure, but I think the low number of options at the low levels are a good thing. They help reduce the "overwhelm" effect on a new player, for one thing.

And for another, all this talk about powers ignores that each class has a handful of class abilities that they're starting with. A newly minted fighter is going to be having fun just using his combat superiority and marking without having to use special super-awesome powers every round. A druid is probably still getting used to the whole shapeshift thing at that level. Sure, eventually that'll be old-hat, but by that time they'll be well along picking up the half-dozen more powers that make up your suite by paragon tier.

But much of this is dependent on the DM in practice. I know that one of my DMs really wants us to use "cool moves" to make the encounter dynamic and fun. I'll wager that many DM want that, but don't say it often enough for it to penetrate our (the player's) thick skulls.

Well, obviously if your battles always happen on an empty basketball court, things are going to get real boring real quick. It's up to the DM to make sure that each battle has interesting environmental factors.

Level one is ~2.3 unique actions per round. 2 At Wills plus 1 Encounter (0.125 actions per round in a 8 round encounter) plus maybe a racial encounter and a daily (0.025 actions with 5 encounters per day, 8 rounds per encounter).

I don't really know what math you're using here. When I'm talking about unique actions, I'm just talking about powers used, one per turn... what I would think of as "interesting rounds of combat". I don't know what an eighth of an action per round is.

At level 1:
So in round 1 I can throw Icy Terrain, in round 2 I can Thunderwave, in round 3 I can use magic missile, in round 4 I can teleport and thunderwave again, and at that point I may be out of special moves and limited to my at wills for the next four rounds.

Level seven is only slightly better at ~2.6 unique actions per round. 2 At Wills plus 3 Encounter (0.375 actions per round in a 8 round encounter) plus maybe a racial encounter and 4 dailies (0.025 actions with 5 encounters per day, 8 rounds per encounter). Maybe a little more with magic items.

At 7th level, you have seven powers other than your racial and daily powers. So even if you don't use a daily, you have only one round where you can't possibly do something interesting. That's not to say you won't use your at-wills a lot, because sometimes those Utility powers are daily or situational or don't work in combat or are just minor actions... but that's kinda the point. Even so, you won't be repeating your actions very often with five to seven unique encounter or at-will powers.

For example:
In round 1 I use Lightning Bolt against three guys. In round 2, I teleport and use Fire Shroud for wide-area damage. In round 3, I cast Jump on the rogue so he can get past a pit, and maybe I throw a Thunderwave. In round 4, maybe I toss a Magic Missile while I'm moving into position. In round 5, I'll put down the Icy Terrain to help lock down some guys.

I've got through more than half the battle and I haven't repeated yet, and I haven't even used one of my three daily powers (I picked Invisibility, Stinking Cloud, and Acid Arrow today). I can probably afford to use one of those in each battle, so let's choose Stinking Cloud. I'll use my minor actions to drive it around the battlefield while I'm thunderwaving people into its area of effect! And at that point the Fighter is going to find that his Tide of Iron is a lot more attractive, too, because he'll be throwing people into my spell's poisonous zone.

If I'm walking around pulling off combo attacks with Thunderwave and Stinking Cloud, I'm not just going "Oh god, I guess I'll thunderwave again" -- I'm actively controlling the fight, using two powers together for an increased effect.

This is not a boring, grindy battle, and I haven't even taken into account any special actions, like second wind, or skill checks, or... well, I should have three to five magic items by now, with their accompanying powers, and I haven't used an action point (which is really an every-other-battle thing).

When you hit 11th level it's even better, because you get a paragon path. Maybe I'll use my paragon path power Blood Pulse. The next turn, maybe I use an action point to get the benefit of Blood Action and throw two magic missiles that deal ongoing 10 each...

The game has dummied down to "Use At Will power #1 or Use At Will power #2" for the vast majority of rounds in levels 1 through 5+. All spell casters feel like Fighters.

Uh-huh, okay. Dumbed down, whatever.

Meanwhile the fighters feel more like spellcasters. Oh, look. There's no "this is for n00bs" class anymore.

So, I cannot help it that this is sufficent for you. Some people enjoy more complex tactical interactions than which one of three actions to do this round. Even MtG has more choices than that.

So play a paragon game. Sheesh. That's the point I'm making, by 11th level you have two at-wills, four encounter powers, three utilities (which may be encounter or daily), and three daily powers. Assuming all your utils are daily, you can still afford to use a daily and a utility in each fight (more or less), which gives you eight different powers to use in each fight across eight rounds of combat.... at which point you need not ever repeat your at-wills (unless some of those utils are minor actions, but still).

There are virtually no spell durations in 4E. For some people who enjoyed buffing their PCs, that's gone. Forget it. The vast majority of buffs last until the end of the PC's next turn.

So it bothers you that it's "I give you a bonus to your next attack" rather than "I give you a bonus for the whole battle"? And at the same time you're complaining that there's not enough round-by-round interest to the game? Huh.

Illusions? Nope. Summoning that's worthwhile? Nope. Scrolls to backfill spells and allow for more choices? Nope.

Why do you need more? You've got a dozen possible actions to take and only eight rounds of combat to cram them into, in every fight.

I'm not sure where the "illusion" and "summoning" complaints are coming from. Summon magic is coming up next week in Arcane Power, but you're just going to pick Summons as your daily powers. They're not in addition to your usual suite. Maybe when you complain about not having illusions, you mean "I can do anything if I'm creative enough to bamboozle the DM" illusions. "I make the major image of a red dragon!" illusions?

I could wish there were more illusion-flavored powers, but I'm not going to whine about losing out on powers that depend entirely on the DM's fiat to determine how well they work.

 

[Keenath]

Shift plus Charge actually usually solves that. In addition... taking OAs really is okay.

It took my group up until the last session to figure that out. I mentioned the battle a little earlier in the thread -- with dozens of minions and no controller. It was a grindy battle, but maybe there was a good outcome -- the players largely realized that A) OAs don't hit all that often, especially off minions, B) they don't hurt all THAT much, especially off minions, and C) it's often worth the pain to get into position.

Why swing away on the rope instead of swinging into an attack? I mean, Robin Hood it up... shift away, rope swing into someone, or dropping the chandelier on someone, etc.

This is part of the "say yes" paradigm of DMing. Try to find a way to make player ideas work rather than saying, "No, you can't do that".

It feels to me like you are saying, "Well sure you may have 100 tools but you don't really have options because every time you need to turn a phillips head screw you still HAVE to reach for the phillips head screwdriver." That may in fact be true. But I still have 100 tools.

I agree; I've always had a problem with the "It's situational, so it doesn't count" mentality. It presupposes that "situational" means it's out of your hands, which is silly. If you're a warlord with Earthshock, you won't play the same as another warlord. You know you have that power, so you'll try to set it up. You'll maneuver yourself into a situation where you can hit a group of enemies where your allies can capitalize on it.

It's the same for virtually any situational power -- you know you have it, so you work to set up the proper situation! If you're just sitting back and going, "Well, maybe some day the bad guys will happen to be in the right positions for Fire Shroud to work well", you're doing yourself a disservice. And if you're really clever, you start comboing your powers to work best. "Okay, first I'll thunderwave these two and push them next to those other guys. Next I'll move here -- if he OAs me, I'll cast shield -- and then I'll use my action point to cast Fire Shroud and set them all on fire."

 

[Storminator]

It's the same for virtually any situational power -- you know you have it, so you work to set up the proper situation! If you're just sitting back and going, "Well, maybe some day the bad guys will happen to be in the right positions for Fire Shroud to work well", you're doing yourself a disservice. And if you're really clever, you start comboing your powers to work best. "Okay, first I'll thunderwave these two and push them next to those other guys. Next I'll move here -- if he OAs me, I'll cast shield -- and then I'll use my action point to cast Fire Shroud and set them all on fire."

Even better is when you realize I have the perfect power to set you up.

My new favorite with my cleric is to use Split the Sky (push 2, knock prone, oh yeah some damage!) to put the monster at the feet of the rogue, move to the downed foe, action point to Righteous Brand and give the rogue the +4. Time for a Daily!

PS

 

[Nail]

If the DM plays within the boundaries he is given, it [ed: Using intimidate] is not nearly as cheesy as it seems on the surface.

That took me a lot longer to accept.

At first the Indimidate schtick looked like nothing but cheese. "Use a skill as a auto-win power? Are you nuts?" ....But upon further review (and at higher level, as you point out), it's not so bad.

In fact,

Spoiler

I'm kinda hoping to use the schtick myself as a player. We'll see how successful I am.

(Shhhh! Don't let my DM see this!)