Anyone else think Skill Points are... wierd?

[yennico]

2) I think, generally, characters get too few skills.

I totally agree.

A good solution would be some sort of background skill package, every character receives, which grants skills aquired before the adventuring career. Of course, there would need to be a lot of those packages for the various combinations.

While this is meant to be covered by the x4 multiplier at 1st level and the untrained skill checks, it hardly does so.

I give my players some free skill points at level one.

 

[yennico]

There's a feat that does exactly that in Races of Destiny. It's only available to humans and dopplegangers (though I'd allow it for changelings in an Eberron campaign), and has to be taken at 1st level.

The feat is called able learner.

 

[Henry]

OK, I understand that SP's represent training, however, training to jump further would probably involve things such as jumping over and over again, and strengthening your legs etc. I don't really see how intelligence would have any effect over this. Likewise, how do you "train" yourself to have better hearing/vision (for listen and spot)?

DISCLAIMER: D&D is an abstract model of real life, and of course won't simulate it well. That said:

Jumping does involve more than simple strength training, as an athlete knows. While strength training is important, there is also learning when is the best time in the run-up to jump (jump too soon and you miss the mark), and the goals they have in form and stance (because there are different ways to do that). It takes time to "get the feel of your body" and thus adjust your technique to your personal height and weight, mostly through repetition and reasoning out what you learn from the practice. It's not something that comes to the athlete, it's something they get better at through learning.

Training is a professional athlete; raw strength is the way the Hulk jumps, to use a fictional example; there's a guy with ZERO form in his leaps, but through inhuman strength he gets the distance needed, despite the fact that he's got the grace of a rock.

 

[billd91]

You can't really compare this to something like the "Jump" skill which is a much more "simple" thing to do than to play sport. I doubt any of the mental attributes needed to play a sport well would be applicable to jumping... Having to make split second decisions, figuring out a strategy of play etc... It's a much more simple thing...

I would argue that you certainly could compare training for complicated sports and skills in D&D. You're just pulling out Jump (which involves gauging when you hit max speed, timing, form, and compensating for non-laboratory conditions). I think just focusing on that would be like focusing on just the skill at throwing a forward pass.
I think what we're really looking at is an athlete training for a complicated sport and a character training for a complicated adventuring profession. Look a the situation as a whole. That orc in the wild (whether a fighter, barbarian, or ranger) has to manage all of his skills (the ones he actually invests ranks in and the ones he can use untrained), class powers, feats (remember all those weapons he knows how to use?), as well as offense and defense (BAB and Saves). Not really any less complex than being a wide receiver, I should expect.

Another thing to look at is untrained skills. Being able to use a skill untrained really means that the PC has some basic understanding of how the skill works. If he had none, the skill wouldn't be useable untrained. They just have 0 ranks invested in it, meaning, they haven't spent the concentrated effort to really excel at it. So that stupid orc out in the woods has really learned the basics of many skills, has the potential to excel in some that he decides to put his mind to, and, due to his profession's inherent qualities (class skills), has the career direction to channel those potentialities along certain paths.
Bright, motivated characters who can easily absorb and adapt to the nuances of the skill paths open to them (relatively high intelligences) have more of those potentialities than characters who are a bit more dull witted.

 

[Grazzt]

1)
A good solution would be some sort of background skill package, every character receives, which grants skills aquired before the adventuring career. Of course, there would need to be a lot of those packages for the various combinations.

Bye
Thanee

Rather than design packages, just grant 1st-level characters a set of bonus skill points (say 4-6 or whatever) to be distributed however they see fit (preferably based on their character concept).

 

[kigmatzomat]

Jumping, in any environment out of a sports arena, is a complicated activity. You need to be aware of the footing, choose your approach, decide where you'll place your feet, whether to tuck and roll, etc, etc.

Olympic-type long jumping is a practiced routine with the advantage that the environment is highly regulated. I imagine a cross-country runner will be able to make better jumps on average* in a wooded environment than a long-jumper because they have the knowledge to take advantage of the environment.

On average is important because the longjumper may make 2-3 spectacular leaps but they are far, far more likely to injure themselves than the runner.

 

[blargney the second]

A bonus skill point package I've enjoyed is as follows:
- 6 bonus ranks at first level
- No more than 2 ranks in a given background skill
- Can only be spent on Craft, Profession, Knowledge(Local), or Speak Language.
- Must put at least 1 rank in Knowledge(Local)

Just plain old secondary skills that indicate where they came from, their social class, etc.
-blarg

 

[DonTadow]

I've always been a bit uneasy about intelligence being the sole contributing stat to how many skill points a character gets. It makes sence for SOME of the skills, but for some others, it just seems weird...

Think about it in the case of a powerful Orc warrior, who live on the land. He might have an INT of 6 or less, but surely he could be good at many "skills" which might not have anything to do with his level of intelligence, for example swimming, riding, climbing, jumping, balancing, intimidating, listening, spotting, survival, and so on.

Some of these ok maybe you CAN explain it in a way where intelligence plays a role, but some things make no sence in that regard (especially listening, spotting, and jumping).

I realise that SP's are effected by INT for game balance reasons, but it just seems strange. Imagine in the case of a int 6 Half Orc Fighter... only 1 skill point per level???? He can either jump far, or have good hearing, or have good vision, but he is "too dumb" to have all 3???

Another thing... anyone else think its a bit strange that the Intimidate skill is affected by only your charisma? For some reason I always imagined a big hulking snarling rude Half-Orc would be able to intimidate someone more than a charismatic halfling bard...

I can certainly understand and relate with some of the opinions posted so far, but , to play devils advocate, I can see the argument for skills being based off of intelligence. Whereas, yes, a half-orc might have done a lot, his intelligence marks how well he retains what he has learned. It also judges his focus and willingness to learn.

 

[RigaMortus2]

Skills are learned. You need intelligence to learn things, so Int adding to skill points makes perfect sense. When you mention a powerful Orc Warrior being better at Swim, Climb, etc. (which Int doesn't have much to do) you are correct. That is where the bonus from Strength kicks in.

 

[Aristotle]

I like the way the current system works. Intelligence makes sense (to me) as the base ability for skills. And with a little thought you could explain the role intelligence plays in every last skill. You get points from your class, a character who is particularly good in a skill will likely have a particularly good ability score in the linked ability (providing a bonus that often makes up for the lack of Intelligence), and if you have a specific build in mind you can spend a feat to get additional bonuses to related skills.

At first glance it does appear to rely too heavily on Intelligence, but once you dig into it a bit I think it becomes more about the character as a whole and the concept you have for him/her.