As the title says. Bad Axe Games based its Trailblazer supp on the 3.x rules, though the modular rules can be incorporated into the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game.
-
NOW LIVE! Into the Woods--new character species, eerie monsters, and haunting villains to populate the woodlands of your D&D games.
Anyone using Trailblazer to "optimize" their 3.x Game?
- Thread starter joela
- Start date
Scurvy_Platypus
Explorer
What is it that you'd like to see fixed?
And as a follow up, are the problems ones you see through the entire set of levels, or only certain ones?
To clarify, it seems like lots of folks don't have too many problems with 3.x until somewhere between 9th and 12th level. Now, it seems to me that a relatively easy solution is to simply cap the game at 10th level and call it good. However, that's not a solution as far as a fair chunk of folks are concerned. So I'm curious to know if your problems are the sort that wouldn't be noticed below a certain level or what.
Ahnehnois
First Post
I use combat reactions, the BAB fix, and a few other odds and ends.
I understand PF's combat maneuver system better, so I use that. UA action points suit my needs, so I saw no need to implement their more complicated version. Their magic system confused me as well, and I'd already basically rewritten magic with some UA rules. Some of their new classes are good; I have a player who is I think basically playing a TB ranger. I saw no need to do universal save progressions or change the skills they changed.
On the whole, it's a very interesting read, but when you dig into it, you find that just like with everything else there's a lot of debate as to what the problems are with 3.5 that needed fixing. We've seen one company release a 3.75 D&D with minor changes (PF), one try to rewrite some of the basics to improve them (TB), and one company that gutted the game in an effort to "fix" problems that were never there (which shall remain nameless). In many ways, Trailblazer is as close to a new edition of D&D as we've ever gotten. That said, I still think 3.5 is the best game in town.
I understand PF's combat maneuver system better, so I use that. UA action points suit my needs, so I saw no need to implement their more complicated version. Their magic system confused me as well, and I'd already basically rewritten magic with some UA rules. Some of their new classes are good; I have a player who is I think basically playing a TB ranger. I saw no need to do universal save progressions or change the skills they changed.
On the whole, it's a very interesting read, but when you dig into it, you find that just like with everything else there's a lot of debate as to what the problems are with 3.5 that needed fixing. We've seen one company release a 3.75 D&D with minor changes (PF), one try to rewrite some of the basics to improve them (TB), and one company that gutted the game in an effort to "fix" problems that were never there (which shall remain nameless). In many ways, Trailblazer is as close to a new edition of D&D as we've ever gotten. That said, I still think 3.5 is the best game in town.
Dandu
First Post
The fact that monks cry themselves to sleep at night?
Scurvy_Platypus
Explorer
Hmmm. How does this Monk sound?
--------------------------------------
Alignment: Any lawful.
Hit Die: d8.
Class Skills
The monk’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Acrobatics (Dex), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Disable Device (Int), Escape Artist (Dex), Jump (Str), Knowledge (arcana/religion) (Int), Linguistics (Int), Perception (Wis), Perform (Cha), Persuasion (Cha), Profession (Wis), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Stealth (Dex), and Swim (Str).
Skill Points Per Level: 6 + Int modifier.
Class Features
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Monks are proficient with club, crossbow (light or heavy), dagger, handaxe, javelin, kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, siangham, sling, and spear (including shortspear and long spear).
Monks are not proficient with any armor or shields.
Centered Bonus: When wearing armor, using a shield, carrying a medium or heavy load, or using a weapon not listed above, a monk is no longer centered. A monk who is not centered loses many of her class abilities, including her centered bonus, her reaction bonus, her fast movement, and her flurry of blows abilities. While she is centered, the monk applies the listed centered bonus to attack rolls (including combat maneuvers).
Sidenote: Combat maneuvers are Bull Rush, Disarm, Grapple, Overrun, Sunder, Trip
Centered bonus is +1 for levels 1-4, +2 for levels 5-8, +3 for levels 9-12, +4 for levels 13-16, and +5 for levels 17+.
When centered, a monk may strike with a flurry of blows at the expense of accuracy. When doing so, she may make one extra attack in a round at her highest base attack bonus, but this attack takes a –2 penalty, as does each other attack made that round.
This penalty applies for 1 round, so it also affects attacks of opportunity the monk might make before her next action.
When a monk reaches 5th level, the flurry of blows penalty lessens to –1, and at 9th level it is reduced to zero. A monk must use a full attack action to strike with a flurry of blows.
When using flurry of blows, a monk may attack only with unarmed strikes or with any of the melee weapons with which monks are proficient. She may attack with unarmed strikes and weapons interchangeably as desired. When using weapons as part of a flurry of blows, a monk applies her Strength bonus (not Str bonus x 1-½ or x ½ ) to her damage rolls for all successful attacks, whether she wields a weapon in one or both hands. The monk can’t use any prohibited weapon as part of a flurry of blows. A monk cannot combine flurry of blows with two-weapon fighting.
When a monk reaches 11th level, her flurry of blows ability improves. In addition to the standard single extra attack she gets from flurry of blows, she gets a second extra attack at her full base attack bonus.
Sidenote: 5th level the monk fluries for +4/+4, 9th level is +7/+7/+7, 11th level is +9/+9/+9/+9. 20th level is +91/+19/+19/+19.
Unarmed Strike: At 1st level, a monk gains Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat. A monk deals more damage with her unarmed strikes than a normal person would, as shown on Table: Monk. (The unarmed damage on Table: Monk is for Medium monks. Adjust the damage for smaller or larger sized monks accordingly.)
A monk’s attacks may be with either fist interchangeably or even from elbows, knees, and feet. This means that a monk may even make unarmed strikes with her hands full. There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed. A monk may thus apply her full Strength bonus on damage rolls for all her unarmed strikes.
Sidenote: Monk Damage is 1d6 for levels 1-3, 1d8 for levels 4-7, 2d6 for levels 8-11, 2d8 for levels 12-15, 3d6 for levels 16-19, and 3d8 for level 20.
Usually a monk’s unarmed strikes deal lethal damage, but she can choose to deal nonlethal damage instead with no penalty on her attack roll. She has the same choice to deal lethal or nonlethal damage while grappling.
A monk’s unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.
Reaction Bonus (Ex): When centered, the monk adds her Wisdom bonus (if any) to her AC. In addition, a monk gains a +1 bonus to both AC and initiative at 5th level. This bonus increases by 1 for every five monk levels thereafter (+2 at 10th, +3 at 15th, and +4 at 20th level).
The bonuses to AC apply even against touch attacks or when the monk is flat-footed. She loses these bonuses when she is immobilized or helpless, and when she is not centered.
Bonus Feat: At 1st, 2nd, and 6th level, a monk may select a bonus feat from the following list of monk bonus feats. A monk need not have any of the prerequisites normally required for these feats to select them.
Combat Reflexes, Deflect Arrows, Dodge, Improved Disarm, Improved Grapple, Improved Trip, Stunning Fist, Toughness, or Weapon Kata.
The weapon kata feat grants the monk proficiency with one additional Simple or Martial weapon of her choice, and adds this weapon to her list of “monk weapons.” When using this weapon, the monk remains centered. A monk cannot use this feat to gain proficiency with an exotic weapon, but if she is already proficient with an exotic weapon (for example, through the normal expenditure of a feat) she may use weapon kata to add that weapon to her list of permitted monk weapons. A monk may have only one weapon kata.
Trapfinding: At 1st level, the monk gains the trapfinding ability. She may use her Disable Device skill to disarm traps as a rogue.
--------------------------------------
And then there's the usual list of other monkly bits with being immune to disease etc. I'm not going to copy/paste the _entire_ thing, just tryin' to give an idea of what's changed.
So, is this Monk goin' to go home cryin'?
I personally am actually not sold on the whole Trailblazer action points thing, which is what so many people seem to love about Trailblazer. But it does seem to be a pretty solid new foundation; just ripping out the base 3.x classes and replacing them with these seems like it'd be a good start.
If there was a desperate need, the game police wouldn't kick in your door for cherry-pickin' the odd ability out of Pathfinder and slapping it onto a Trailblazer base class, although you'd want to be careful, given that both Pathfinder and Trailblazer are bumping up class abilities, although in different ways.
--------------------------------------
Alignment: Any lawful.
Hit Die: d8.
Class Skills
The monk’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Acrobatics (Dex), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Disable Device (Int), Escape Artist (Dex), Jump (Str), Knowledge (arcana/religion) (Int), Linguistics (Int), Perception (Wis), Perform (Cha), Persuasion (Cha), Profession (Wis), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Stealth (Dex), and Swim (Str).
Skill Points Per Level: 6 + Int modifier.
Class Features
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Monks are proficient with club, crossbow (light or heavy), dagger, handaxe, javelin, kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, siangham, sling, and spear (including shortspear and long spear).
Monks are not proficient with any armor or shields.
Centered Bonus: When wearing armor, using a shield, carrying a medium or heavy load, or using a weapon not listed above, a monk is no longer centered. A monk who is not centered loses many of her class abilities, including her centered bonus, her reaction bonus, her fast movement, and her flurry of blows abilities. While she is centered, the monk applies the listed centered bonus to attack rolls (including combat maneuvers).
Sidenote: Combat maneuvers are Bull Rush, Disarm, Grapple, Overrun, Sunder, Trip
Centered bonus is +1 for levels 1-4, +2 for levels 5-8, +3 for levels 9-12, +4 for levels 13-16, and +5 for levels 17+.
When centered, a monk may strike with a flurry of blows at the expense of accuracy. When doing so, she may make one extra attack in a round at her highest base attack bonus, but this attack takes a –2 penalty, as does each other attack made that round.
This penalty applies for 1 round, so it also affects attacks of opportunity the monk might make before her next action.
When a monk reaches 5th level, the flurry of blows penalty lessens to –1, and at 9th level it is reduced to zero. A monk must use a full attack action to strike with a flurry of blows.
When using flurry of blows, a monk may attack only with unarmed strikes or with any of the melee weapons with which monks are proficient. She may attack with unarmed strikes and weapons interchangeably as desired. When using weapons as part of a flurry of blows, a monk applies her Strength bonus (not Str bonus x 1-½ or x ½ ) to her damage rolls for all successful attacks, whether she wields a weapon in one or both hands. The monk can’t use any prohibited weapon as part of a flurry of blows. A monk cannot combine flurry of blows with two-weapon fighting.
When a monk reaches 11th level, her flurry of blows ability improves. In addition to the standard single extra attack she gets from flurry of blows, she gets a second extra attack at her full base attack bonus.
Sidenote: 5th level the monk fluries for +4/+4, 9th level is +7/+7/+7, 11th level is +9/+9/+9/+9. 20th level is +91/+19/+19/+19.
Unarmed Strike: At 1st level, a monk gains Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat. A monk deals more damage with her unarmed strikes than a normal person would, as shown on Table: Monk. (The unarmed damage on Table: Monk is for Medium monks. Adjust the damage for smaller or larger sized monks accordingly.)
A monk’s attacks may be with either fist interchangeably or even from elbows, knees, and feet. This means that a monk may even make unarmed strikes with her hands full. There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed. A monk may thus apply her full Strength bonus on damage rolls for all her unarmed strikes.
Sidenote: Monk Damage is 1d6 for levels 1-3, 1d8 for levels 4-7, 2d6 for levels 8-11, 2d8 for levels 12-15, 3d6 for levels 16-19, and 3d8 for level 20.
Usually a monk’s unarmed strikes deal lethal damage, but she can choose to deal nonlethal damage instead with no penalty on her attack roll. She has the same choice to deal lethal or nonlethal damage while grappling.
A monk’s unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.
Reaction Bonus (Ex): When centered, the monk adds her Wisdom bonus (if any) to her AC. In addition, a monk gains a +1 bonus to both AC and initiative at 5th level. This bonus increases by 1 for every five monk levels thereafter (+2 at 10th, +3 at 15th, and +4 at 20th level).
The bonuses to AC apply even against touch attacks or when the monk is flat-footed. She loses these bonuses when she is immobilized or helpless, and when she is not centered.
Bonus Feat: At 1st, 2nd, and 6th level, a monk may select a bonus feat from the following list of monk bonus feats. A monk need not have any of the prerequisites normally required for these feats to select them.
Combat Reflexes, Deflect Arrows, Dodge, Improved Disarm, Improved Grapple, Improved Trip, Stunning Fist, Toughness, or Weapon Kata.
The weapon kata feat grants the monk proficiency with one additional Simple or Martial weapon of her choice, and adds this weapon to her list of “monk weapons.” When using this weapon, the monk remains centered. A monk cannot use this feat to gain proficiency with an exotic weapon, but if she is already proficient with an exotic weapon (for example, through the normal expenditure of a feat) she may use weapon kata to add that weapon to her list of permitted monk weapons. A monk may have only one weapon kata.
Trapfinding: At 1st level, the monk gains the trapfinding ability. She may use her Disable Device skill to disarm traps as a rogue.
--------------------------------------
And then there's the usual list of other monkly bits with being immune to disease etc. I'm not going to copy/paste the _entire_ thing, just tryin' to give an idea of what's changed.
So, is this Monk goin' to go home cryin'?
I personally am actually not sold on the whole Trailblazer action points thing, which is what so many people seem to love about Trailblazer. But it does seem to be a pretty solid new foundation; just ripping out the base 3.x classes and replacing them with these seems like it'd be a good start.
If there was a desperate need, the game police wouldn't kick in your door for cherry-pickin' the odd ability out of Pathfinder and slapping it onto a Trailblazer base class, although you'd want to be careful, given that both Pathfinder and Trailblazer are bumping up class abilities, although in different ways.
ThatGuyThere
Explorer
Maybe you can. I can't. Neither can any player in any game I've ever played.
The problem you have named is not a mathematical problem that can be addressed by a system overhaul. It can only be solved by a DM saying "no".
(The argument, "A fixed system gets rid of the Gate spell!", holds no water. I've been in games without Gate spells where NPCs showed up and did all our work for us, regardless of level - the problem here isn't the Gate spell.)
Scurvy_Platypus
Explorer
I didn't have Trailblazer to deal with that problem. I simply said, "There are no spells above 5th level". Draw your own line in the sand. Maybe just selectively ban the specific spells you've got a problem with, instead of level capping it like I did.
Or go a whole different route... Someone busts out a Gate and messes with your encounter (and really... at level 17 characters are still just monster bashing?) then let 'em get away with it. When it's inconvenient for them, have _them_ be summoned by a Gate spell. It'll certainly spice things up a bit, though it's a sort of jerk move too.
*shrug*
Honestly, there's no fixing the 3.x spell system because fans of 3.x don't want it fixed. It's part of the minigame for them, along with making an optimised character in the first place; figure out how to use a spell in a manner it wasn't originally intended for.
If someone wanted to fix the spell system, they'd want to strip it down to its basic components (Range, damage, number of targets, etc) and then rebuild each spell. Problem is, spells would be shifted all over the place in terms of levels if you did that.
Dandu
First Post
The Gate example is something of an exaggeration. Let's try this again.
One of the reasons monks cry themselves to sleep at night (along with other poorly designed classes like the CW Samurai) is because even if you stop casters from being broken, you still haven't powered them up. Some classes don't need magic to invalidate them, they invalidate themselves. In a fight against a CR appropriate opponent, some classes just can't pull their weight. Look up the Truenamer class if you want to see something truly awful. Not that you can't make a Truenamer that works, or a monk who performs well, but the amount of effort required is more than would be required if you were using, say, a Duskblade or Crusader.
That's the problem that in 3.5e, anyways.
The changes made to the monk in Trailblazer. Better BAB, more skills, and less penalty to flurry make melee a better option, though the problem of MAD is still present in the design. A melee character isn't going to be able to pump Dex and Wis for AC, Con for HP, and Str for damage at the same time, unless they changed the rules for that too. The bonus feats are nice, but nothing's too powerful and they have... *blinks* Toughness.
...
Toughness.
...
Ok, presumably Toughness does something different, because anyone who knows anything about D&D, logic, and game design knows that 3.5 Toughness is a waste of a feat. I doubt the designers of Trailblazer would have made such a blatant mistake. Moving on.
From what I can see of the changes. it's probably in the same general area as a Rogue. Of course, a Rogue is still Tier 4... and tier 4 classes like the Barbarian, Rogue, Warmage do tend to find common encounters challenging. (Monsters that target ref and will saves, undead/constructs/elementals, anything with ER, SR and/or lots of HP respectively). Don't know of the Trailblazer monk still cries himself to sleep, but he won't be crying harder than the party thief.
To definitively answer your question, though, we'd have to make a Trailblazer monk, assign him a hypothetical party, and see how much he contributes to an encounter.
One of the reasons monks cry themselves to sleep at night (along with other poorly designed classes like the CW Samurai) is because even if you stop casters from being broken, you still haven't powered them up. Some classes don't need magic to invalidate them, they invalidate themselves. In a fight against a CR appropriate opponent, some classes just can't pull their weight. Look up the Truenamer class if you want to see something truly awful. Not that you can't make a Truenamer that works, or a monk who performs well, but the amount of effort required is more than would be required if you were using, say, a Duskblade or Crusader.
That's the problem that in 3.5e, anyways.
The changes made to the monk in Trailblazer. Better BAB, more skills, and less penalty to flurry make melee a better option, though the problem of MAD is still present in the design. A melee character isn't going to be able to pump Dex and Wis for AC, Con for HP, and Str for damage at the same time, unless they changed the rules for that too. The bonus feats are nice, but nothing's too powerful and they have... *blinks* Toughness.
...
Toughness.
...
Ok, presumably Toughness does something different, because anyone who knows anything about D&D, logic, and game design knows that 3.5 Toughness is a waste of a feat. I doubt the designers of Trailblazer would have made such a blatant mistake. Moving on.
From what I can see of the changes. it's probably in the same general area as a Rogue. Of course, a Rogue is still Tier 4... and tier 4 classes like the Barbarian, Rogue, Warmage do tend to find common encounters challenging. (Monsters that target ref and will saves, undead/constructs/elementals, anything with ER, SR and/or lots of HP respectively). Don't know of the Trailblazer monk still cries himself to sleep, but he won't be crying harder than the party thief.
To definitively answer your question, though, we'd have to make a Trailblazer monk, assign him a hypothetical party, and see how much he contributes to an encounter.
Last edited:
Similar Threads
