Anyone want to hazard a guess as to what a Martial Controller would look like?
- Thread starter Green Knight
- Start date
Mustrum_Ridcully
Legend
Is adding creatures to the battlefield controlling or leading? Considering that summoning is typically a wizardry activity, I guess it's more a controller ability.CleverNickName said:
I guess the key difference between a Controller or a Leader here is:
The leader takes an existing army and makes it excel in combat (inspiring his allies, placing his allies in the best place for the next strike and so on)
A Controller would add an army to the battlefield.
I guess the Druids or Rangers animal companion ability or the "Pokemount" is a kind of specialized Leader/Controller ability - adds one creature to the battlefield (controlling), but the creature is more effective than usual (leading), but leaning on the "Controller" side (since its increased effectiveness is very passive and it's not much different than just adding a creature of the effetive power level)
Just noticing this thread, thought I'd chime in.
One way you could have a martial controller would be to have a class that functions much like a pulp hero. You are able to manufacture coincidences and warp circumstances to your benefit.
If you are familiar with 'dramatic editing' in Adventure! d20, you probably have some idea what I mean. The Iron Heroes hunter has some abilities like this, too.
A sample of how the flavor would work:
I THOUGHT YOU'D NEVER SHOW UP
You have unexpected allies who tend to show up at just the right time.
Benefit: Once per day you may, as a swift action, make a check. If successful, an unexpected ally is close by and actively trying to help you. (The particular mechanics can be sorted out by rule. The unexpected ally doesn't even have to be someone you, the player, know about; it could be an ally suddenly created and written into your character's backstory. The classic example: "The Eagles are coming! The Eagles are coming!")
Another general approach would be that you have a knack for noticing the military potential of terrain, or objects, or people. You would be able to actually create bonuses or penalties by "retroactively" altering the qualities of things.
The way this would work mechanically would be something like this: instead of spending the actual time and energy required to construct a trap or deadfall in an area you are trying to defend, you would make a check to "notice" something suitable that already exists there. You'd have encounters that begin like this:
DM: The orcs are charging across the field at you!
PC1 (fighter): I buff myself.
PC2 (warlord): I buff the fighter.
PC3 (martial controller): I don't think the orcs realize that this field is undermined by gopher warrens, right in this 20 x 40 area here (draws on map), and if they charge through here they could easily twist an ankle.
One way you could have a martial controller would be to have a class that functions much like a pulp hero. You are able to manufacture coincidences and warp circumstances to your benefit.
If you are familiar with 'dramatic editing' in Adventure! d20, you probably have some idea what I mean. The Iron Heroes hunter has some abilities like this, too.
A sample of how the flavor would work:
I THOUGHT YOU'D NEVER SHOW UP
You have unexpected allies who tend to show up at just the right time.
Benefit: Once per day you may, as a swift action, make a check. If successful, an unexpected ally is close by and actively trying to help you. (The particular mechanics can be sorted out by rule. The unexpected ally doesn't even have to be someone you, the player, know about; it could be an ally suddenly created and written into your character's backstory. The classic example: "The Eagles are coming! The Eagles are coming!")
Another general approach would be that you have a knack for noticing the military potential of terrain, or objects, or people. You would be able to actually create bonuses or penalties by "retroactively" altering the qualities of things.
The way this would work mechanically would be something like this: instead of spending the actual time and energy required to construct a trap or deadfall in an area you are trying to defend, you would make a check to "notice" something suitable that already exists there. You'd have encounters that begin like this:
DM: The orcs are charging across the field at you!
PC1 (fighter): I buff myself.
PC2 (warlord): I buff the fighter.
PC3 (martial controller): I don't think the orcs realize that this field is undermined by gopher warrens, right in this 20 x 40 area here (draws on map), and if they charge through here they could easily twist an ankle.
Epic Meepo
Hero
There's already been a WotC-published novel that features a martial controller:
In the Sell Swords Trilogy of novels, the fighter/assassin Artemis Entreri wields a magic sword that can generate blinding walls of ash. IIRC, the author explicitly used the phrase "control of the battlefield" in reference to this ability on at least one occasion (during one of the fights against wererats; I'd need to have the books on hand to be more specific about which one).
Granted, this example of battlefield control involves a magic item, not a class ability. But the effect (walls of ash) is essentially a sort of smoke screen. So it would seem that smoke screens created by non-magical means (such as smoke sticks) are a form of martial control. That would make a grenadier a martial controller.
By grenadier, I mean someone with greater than normal proficiency wielding "weapons" like alchemist's fire, caltrops, smoke sticks, tanglefoot bags, and thunderstones; not someone who manufactures more-potent than normal alchemical items on the spot.
As pure speculation unrelated to any hints in novels, I would also guess that controlled demolition also counts as battlefield control. So a martial controller might be able to destroy cover with weapon attacks, direct controlled cave-ins at foes by knocking out support pillars, and the such.
In the Sell Swords Trilogy of novels, the fighter/assassin Artemis Entreri wields a magic sword that can generate blinding walls of ash. IIRC, the author explicitly used the phrase "control of the battlefield" in reference to this ability on at least one occasion (during one of the fights against wererats; I'd need to have the books on hand to be more specific about which one).
Granted, this example of battlefield control involves a magic item, not a class ability. But the effect (walls of ash) is essentially a sort of smoke screen. So it would seem that smoke screens created by non-magical means (such as smoke sticks) are a form of martial control. That would make a grenadier a martial controller.
By grenadier, I mean someone with greater than normal proficiency wielding "weapons" like alchemist's fire, caltrops, smoke sticks, tanglefoot bags, and thunderstones; not someone who manufactures more-potent than normal alchemical items on the spot.
As pure speculation unrelated to any hints in novels, I would also guess that controlled demolition also counts as battlefield control. So a martial controller might be able to destroy cover with weapon attacks, direct controlled cave-ins at foes by knocking out support pillars, and the such.
D.Shaffer
First Post
It might just be me being argumentive, but I have a hard time seeing a guy who uses lots of alchemical devices as being 'Martial', powered. He isnt relying on his skill so much as exploiting the effects of his gear. It'd be like claiming Artemis was a martial controller because he used the effects of his sword.
Odysseus
Explorer
D.Shaffer said:
Plus I believe they are trying to move away from classes being too equipment dependent.
Also I see the roles and classes not as straight jackets but as means to add additional abilities.
I don't think there will be any rule that says you can't do xyz because you are a controller or a fighter etc. But rather you will get a set abilities with each choice.
The biggest problems with an alchemist class are:
1) Hard to avoid looking like a poor man's wizard.
2) Hard to justify that other people can't just buy the alchemist's stuff and use it themselves, bypassing the need for levels in the class.
You could come up with fixes for these things, but I think that some of them would be awfully strained. For example, a risk of accidentally poisoning yourself might work with some alchemist items, but it would be hard to make it work with ALL the alchemist's creations.
I also don't think its really "martial" in the traditional sense of the term, but I'm not hung up on filling out all the different spaces on a grid of powers and roles. If an alchemist class were a good idea, I'd want one regardless of whether it was "martial." And if the best way to make an alchemist class was to give it some magical abilities, I'd DEFINITELY want to avoid nerfing it by insisting that it remain non magical in order to fill out the grid.
1) Hard to avoid looking like a poor man's wizard.
2) Hard to justify that other people can't just buy the alchemist's stuff and use it themselves, bypassing the need for levels in the class.
You could come up with fixes for these things, but I think that some of them would be awfully strained. For example, a risk of accidentally poisoning yourself might work with some alchemist items, but it would be hard to make it work with ALL the alchemist's creations.
I also don't think its really "martial" in the traditional sense of the term, but I'm not hung up on filling out all the different spaces on a grid of powers and roles. If an alchemist class were a good idea, I'd want one regardless of whether it was "martial." And if the best way to make an alchemist class was to give it some magical abilities, I'd DEFINITELY want to avoid nerfing it by insisting that it remain non magical in order to fill out the grid.
Green Knight
First Post
D.Shaffer said:
It takes skill to use his equipment. For instance, it isn't enough to have the know-how to make alchemical grenades. You also gotta have a good throwing arm, too, if you want to put those grenades to good use. The guy doesn't just make items. He uses them to fight. And to put them to the most use, he'd have to have some kind of combat training. Possibly somewhere inbetween a Warlord and a Rogue.
Martial doesn't just describe people with strong sword arms, though. The Rogue, for instance, is a Martial character who focuses on doing things with skills that other classes can't. The Warlord does the same with his leadership and inspirational abilities. In the Artificer's case, he'd be taking his natural craftiness and inventiveness to a higher level then most. As the article on power sources said...
Anyone can work up a way how to make a firearm, but an Artificer type would be able to sharpen his natural inventiveness to such a degree that he can build a firearm which fires explosive acidic grenades at the enemy. He gains this ability through focus, training, and skill.
As for how to keep their equipment mostly in their hands, one could simply limit it through the use of Feats as well as similar rules like poisoning. You can use alchemical explosives, but there's a chance it might explode in your hands unless you're an Alchemist who's properly trained in the care and use of such equipment. You can use a Blunderbuss if you like, but you'll have to burn a Feat to gain proficiency in it, as it's a rare piece of equipment that one wouldn't normally be able to train in. Hell, one could give such a Feat a prerequisite, saying that you have to be an Alchemist to take in. In which case, anyone who isn't an Alchemist would always suffer a -4 to hit with such a weapon. It's just to complex a device to properly operate unless you're a trained Alchemist. Or say that such a device needs to be regularly maintained by an Alchemist, and if not, then it eventually malfunctions or stops working altogether. We are talking about pieces of equipment that are fairly unusual and complex in comparison to what most medieval types are used to. It wouldn't take a whole lot to come up with reasons why those items tend to stay in the hands of Alchemists.
