Anyone want to hazard a guess as to what a Martial Controller would look like?

[TwinBahamut]

Just saying that such a class would piss off the Eberron folks; they can't use it because it's steampunk, and steampunk "doesn't belong" in Eberron.

I am just debating an idea that you have proposed. If you notice, I didn't even mention anything steampunky in my last post. Substitute "magical artifice" with steampunk if you like (though that defeats the point of it being nonmagical). Either way, it doesn't work as martial.

He can use his physical prowess in a fight, sure. But none of the Warlord's Leader abilities imply any level of physical ability.

Well, how about we take a page from the White Raven discipline (the obvious model for the warlord), in which you do things like lead a charge yourself, knock a person off balance so that others can hit him more easily, or use an attack to distract your enemies so that your allies can move. These are tactical leadership moves, but they are done in a very physical, melee combat manner. I imagine the Warlord will function the exact same way. The Warlord won't direct his allies from afar, he will be supporting them from up close, using his attacks to set up strong attacks from his allies. I say that counts as "physical ability".

Well, in my experience, at least with 2e-3e, fighters were often the "Blacksmith" guy.

First, this is not my experience, and is certainly not universal to the class. Second, there is a big differnce between being able to make items, and making items as your core gimmick. I don't think it is comparable.

 

[TwinBahamut]

And spellcasters in Sword and Sorcery and pre-D&D Epic Fantasy (almost) only cast big, important spells that pretty much never stop a skilled warrior with a sword from shoving three feet of tempered steel through them.

Extrapolating for playability at the tactical scale, just as was done with magic way back at the beginning of D&D, is what's called for - not scrapping an intriguing concept that aptly fills a difficult to pin down role/power source combination.

I really don't understand this argument at all. I don't think this is a particularly useful analogy.

Anyways, as far as I can understand it, your "extrapolation", would result in the exact thing I would call a Warlord (or maybe a rogue). I really don't understand your point...

Shu, perhaps not, since he does seem to be a pure thinker with no combat ability (although he does get close enough to the action to be endangered, as when he traps Leon).

Salome in Sui3, while not Silverburg-trained, was Chris's strategist initially, and was also a front-line fighter. Leilei, an apprentice strategist, was a front-line fighter in Sui5. Only the really high-end Silverburg school strategists don't even have to involve themselves at the tactical level.

I see the ability of characters like Shu and Mathiu to flat-out win a battle/complete a mission on the strength of their incredible plans as a per-day ability accessible only at the high Paragon or early Epic levels. The martial equivalent to a wish spell, pretty much, albeit IIRC those aren't going to be around in their current form?

Well, if you ask me, Salome is exactly what I would call a Warlord (though with his magical abilities, mace, and haircut, you can probably get away with calling him a cleric).

Yet, how often does a Suikoden Strategist's plan have an effect that would be represented by a buff on his own troops? Only once in a very great while. The vast majority of Leon, Mathiu and especially Shu's plans seem to revolve around tricking the enemy into exposing a weakness, or exploiting an existing weakness, so that they will be easily defeated.

Well, from my perspective, what they do is create a situation advantageous to their allies. On that scale, the difference between buffs and debuffs is vague at best.

Let's step back from the Suikoden strategists, then.

Since I know you'll recognize console RPG references, I can safely bring in a couple of others:

1. Final Fantasy Tactics - The Mediator job class. Nonmagical abilities used to debuff (and buff, admittedly), or even to get enemies to switch sides.

Mediators, huh? I wouldn't call it a Strategist (especially using your definition of a strategist), since their abilities are all charisma. They don't plan, they just... talk. The Negotiator from d20 Modern is pretty close, really. An interesting class concept, and with a good design it might work well as a martial controller, but I don't quite agree that it is what I would call a Strategist.

2. Xenogears - Hyuga Ricdeau. Hyuga often plans to exploit the weaknesses of his opponents and uses cunning to disrupt and defeat them (including, at times, as an anti-party character). Yet he's clearly not a leader type, preferring to set events up behind the scenes and to defer to Emperor Cain and Queen Zephyr, and even to Bart when he's the one in a position of authority.

On a side note... By Hyuge Ricdeau, you are referring to Citan Uzuki, right? I know Xenogears well enough that I once wrote a 10+ page summary of the entire backstory of Xenogears, going from the Eldridge to the start of the game, from memory, but at first glance I didn't have a clue about who the heck Hyuga Ricdeau was when you mentioned him. Not a common name for him, at all.

Anyways, Citan is not really a good model for any kind of character class, considering that he is the ultimate videogame renaissance man. Medicine, mecha engineering, swordsmanship, magic, hand to hand combat, mecha operation, tactics, esoteric knowledge, espionage, etc... About the only thing the man can't do is get his daughter to talk to him.

I'm not thinking warlords are dumb, per say, just that being smart isn't their core schtick.

You misunderstand me. I am not saying that Warlords are not dumb, I am saying that being smart is their core schtick. The difference between a Fighter and a Warlord is that a Fighter is just tough, while the Warlord uses his moves in an intelligent manner to create openings in his opponent's defenses for his opponent to exploit, and adjusts the flow of battle in his favor.

I wish we actually had the rules, so we would know which one of us was right about the Warlord, and knew with better clarity what the terms Leader, Martial, and Controller all meant. It would save a lot of debate...

 

[Gloombunny]

Mog, your ambush ideas are pure Leader material, and the Sow Discord abilities... well, what is the strategist actually doing that causes enemies to play musical chairs like that? I guess I'm having the same reaction to those that some people have to the "critical strike -> healing" thing. I can't imagine how an ability like that could work, in-character.

"Everything Is Proceeding..." is pretty cool, though.

 

[Kaffis]

Kamikaze Midget, the first thing you and I need to do upon the release of a (swashbuckler-less) 4e, is to collaborate on a martial controller swashbuckler.

 

[Odysseus]

Martial seems to be defined as their own abilities, as opposed to those gained from magic or deities.
While Controller seems to be just what it says a controller or manipulator.

That says to me Mindmage.

Now I know there will be no psionics in the 4e core rules. But if there we're martial controller would be where I'd put them.

 

[Howndawg]

To answer the question about warlords and whether they rely on Int or Cha for their abilities, Rich Baker wrote an excellent blog on his warlord character which answers that question. They rely on both Int and Cha to some extent which leads me to believe that they are both tactical and inspirational leaders, as opposed to the marshal, who was purely inspirational.

 

[Green Knight]

Martial seems to be defined as their own abilities, as opposed to those gained from magic or deities.
While Controller seems to be just what it says a controller or manipulator.

That says to me Mindmage.

Now I know there will be no psionics in the 4e core rules. But if there we're martial controller would be where I'd put them.

Nah, when they introduce psionics, that'll probably end up being a fourth power source. Martial, Arcane, Divine, and Psionic. The Psychic Warrior will be the Psionic Defender, the Psion will be the Psionic Controller, etc.

 

[olshanski]

Marital controllers might include Peggy Bundy, Carol Brady, Samantha Stevens, and Marge Simpson.

Oh, did you say Martial? Never mind.

 

[JVisgaitis]

 

[CleverNickName]

Perhaps something like this?