Anyone want to hazard a guess as to what a Martial Controller would look like?

[Rechan]

So, how about Alchemists, slightly crazy reasearchers with bombs, experimental gunpowder weapons, icky-sticky liquids in bottles and hundred ideas per second, with a mobile Battle Alchemax set stored in a suitcase?

I also see a striker under this condition relying on poisons and single-target 'coat'm in flaming stuff and watch'm burn' stuff.

 

[TwinBahamut]

Except when it causes people to shriek and go "THAT'S NOT D&D". You get that a lot with Warforged and magic trains.

And even in Eberron, Eberron has no clockwork or steampunk. Warforged are diet golems, lacking gears. Steam does not exist as a form of power - the "Technology" is wholly powered by elementals. So it's magic replacing technology, not technology.

Huh? I am not sure why you are bringing Eberron into this, when you are yourself saying that Eberron isn't a steampunk/clockwork setting.

I fail to see how "they have to build it" differentiates them. The Fighter and Rogue still need a weapon to do their job. I could say that because they're using tools, that totally means they're not "Martial", they're "Weapon users", differentiating them.

Why is the Warlord a "Martial" leader? He's not using his physical prowess and his muscles to buff people. By your definition, he's something else because it has nothing to do with his physical training.

First, the warlord does use his physical prowess, since he is a melee combat class. Second, I already folded general levels of skill and mental ability into my concept of the martial power source.

Anyways, if you fail to see my problem with it making the distinction about tiems, I don't mind. It is my own issue with it, after all. However, it is real and clear enough to me.

I guess the clearest way to explain is to ask you to imagine what the fighter, rogue, and warlord would be like if they also made items, instead of just using them. You might have a rogue who could build and maintain guns as a central gimmick, or a defender who relied on magic potions and salves of his own creation to bolster his defense and strength. They are interesting character concepts which don't rely on magic other than alchemy, but they are quite different than the existing martial classes.

I guess you can say that I think "martial" characters should rely on "techniques" and "tactics" for their power, while the class you are proposing would rely on "items" and "inventiveness", which I think is a qualitative difference greater than the Arcane/Divine split.

 

[Rechan]

Huh? I am not sure why you are bringing Eberron into this, when you are yourself saying that Eberron isn't a steampunk/clockwork setting.

Just saying that such a class would piss off the Eberron folks; they can't use it because it's steampunk, and steampunk "doesn't belong" in Eberron.

First, the warlord does use his physical prowess, since he is a melee combat class. Second, I already folded general levels of skill and mental ability into my concept of the martial power source.

He can use his physical prowess in a fight, sure. But none of the Warlord's Leader abilities imply any level of physical ability.

I guess the clearest way to explain is to ask you to imagine what the fighter, rogue, and warlord would be like if they also made items, instead of just using them.

Well, in my experience, at least with 2e-3e, fighters were often the "Blacksmith" guy.

 

[MoogleEmpMog]

I don't know who Trawn and Vetinari are, but if Shu is refering to the strategist from Suikoden 2, then I say no, he is not suited to being a PC in an ordinary D&D campaign. Keep in mind, Shu is not a controllable combat character in Suikoden 2. No strategist is playable in the whole series. They only play a role in story sequences and mass battles. They don't even affect anything at the kind of scale a D&D controller would need to operate.

And spellcasters in Sword and Sorcery and pre-D&D Epic Fantasy (almost) only cast big, important spells that pretty much never stop a skilled warrior with a sword from shoving three feet of tempered steel through them.

Extrapolating for playability at the tactical scale, just as was done with magic way back at the beginning of D&D, is what's called for - not scrapping an intriguing concept that aptly fills a difficult to pin down role/power source combination.

Shu is a great character, and I think there should be a place for such a character in D&D, but I don't think a martial controller PC is that place.

Shu, perhaps not, since he does seem to be a pure thinker with no combat ability (although he does get close enough to the action to be endangered, as when he traps Leon).

Salome in Sui3, while not Silverburg-trained, was Chris's strategist initially, and was also a front-line fighter. Leilei, an apprentice strategist, was a front-line fighter in Sui5. Only the really high-end Silverburg school strategists don't even have to involve themselves at the tactical level.

I see the ability of characters like Shu and Mathiu to flat-out win a battle/complete a mission on the strength of their incredible plans as a per-day ability accessible only at the high Paragon or early Epic levels. The martial equivalent to a wish spell, pretty much, albeit IIRC those aren't going to be around in their current form?

At their core, I think a controller needs to force his opponents to do something/be in a bad situation. As a whole, Strategists can only make plans, which are carried out by teammates. This is a form of leadership, not control, if you ask me.

Yet, how often does a Suikoden Strategist's plan have an effect that would be represented by a buff on his own troops? Only once in a very great while. The vast majority of Leon, Mathiu and especially Shu's plans seem to revolve around tricking the enemy into exposing a weakness, or exploiting an existing weakness, so that they will be easily defeated.

Honestly, this just sounds like a Rogue to me. I am just not seeing how this works... Maybe a Rogue/Warlord multiclass, but I am not seeing it offer anything that doesn't already exist in other Martial classes...

Warlord = Buffer
Strategist = Debuffer

That's the critical distinction from a game-mechanical standpoint. The Warlord leads and inspires his allies (or plans for their success - we're not sure at this point). The Strategist confuses and confounds his enemies.

The Controller role seems to fit the concept of a Strategist acting at the skirmish level perfectly: he determines what actions enemies can reasonably take and where they can effectively move, uses 'offensive' techniques that debilitate (or possibly even harm) multiple targets, and debuffs.

He doesn't buff very often, and when he does his buffs are situational. He probably doesn't heal AT ALL (except insofar as everyone may have limited self-healing in 4e).

I would break it down like this:

The Wizard (arcane controller) is the best at multi-target effects that deal direct damage, and is also the best balanced, with lots of utility powers, some terrain powers and debuffs.

The Druid (divine controller) is the best at terrain powers. He can dictate enemy movement better than anyone and can take advantage of position. He also has some direct multi-target damage and utility, but not many debuffs that don't involve movement restrictions.

The Strategist (martial controller) is the best at debuffs. He has decent movement related abilities and good abilities relying on exploiting existing positioning, but few or no direct damage powers.

Remember that the main difference between the battlefield commanders of Suikoden and the strategists is that the strategists offer advice for controlling large-scale sieges and the defense and conquest of entire cities and regions. At the tactical level that D&D operates in, the Suikoden strategists don't do anything at all.

Let's step back from the Suikoden strategists, then.

Since I know you'll recognize console RPG references, I can safely bring in a couple of others:

1. Final Fantasy Tactics - The Mediator job class. Nonmagical abilities used to debuff (and buff, admittedly), or even to get enemies to switch sides.
2. Xenogears - Hyuga Ricdeau. Hyuga often plans to exploit the weaknesses of his opponents and uses cunning to disrupt and defeat them (including, at times, as an anti-party character). Yet he's clearly not a leader type, preferring to set events up behind the scenes and to defer to Emperor Cain and Queen Zephyr, and even to Bart when he's the one in a position of authority.

Also, I think you are under-estimating the strategic intelligence of the Warlord class. I don't imagine it as a purely charisma-based class. I imagine it as a class of the smart fighter who probably plays way too much chess...

I'm not thinking warlords are dumb, per say, just that being smart isn't their core schtick.

 

[Cadfan]

Vetinari's modus operandi is to ensure that people don't bother fighting him because they don't think doing so would even be in their best interests. I cannot even think of a controller like trick or ability Vetinari has ever used that would function on a tactical, melee brawl level against even an angry poodle. Vetinari's "control" would manifest itself in having arranged for the city to have a competent dog catcher who picked the poodle up hours before Vetinari even encountered it.

I'm all for characters who politic and manipulate and pull the strings which control entire nations, but that doesn't make them "controllers" in the D&D sense.

 

[Cadfan]

Vetinari Ability-

Feat: Planning Ahead
Prerequisite- 30 years of political machination.
Effect: A character with this feat may expend a swift action to retcon the campaign to include the an additional NPC party member with the exact abilities and motivations necessary to bring the current encounter to a favorable conclusion without the character possessing this feat even lifting a finger.

 

[MoogleEmpMog]

Vetinari Ability-

Feat: Planning Ahead
Prerequisite- 30 years of political machination.
Effect: A character with this feat may expend a swift action to retcon the campaign to include the an additional NPC party member with the exact abilities and motivations necessary to bring the current encounter to a favorable conclusion without the character possessing this feat even lifting a finger.

Of course Vetinari doesn't have to lift a finger. When it comes to manipulation, subterfuge and pre-planning, he's the best of the best. But Vetinari is a past-master at his art. He has been, as you point out, manipulating people and running the most chaotic, nigh-uncontrollable, jumbled mess of a city the Disc has ever seen. Sounds like a high-level character in D&D terms.

An ability like your 'Planning Ahead' feat, if it were a daily power for a Paragon or Epic-level character, would not, I suspect, be at ALL out of the question. It's not overpowered for a (3e) 9th level spell, and downright underpowered for a well-designed (3e) epic spell. A character who can do this at 18th level is not absurd. One who can do it at 25th or 30th level definitely isn't.

As a "low-level character" (i.e., at the beginning of his career), Vetinari had to trick, manipulate and coerce others at a much more personal level, and sometimes even dirty his hands by going out and killing people - with a weapon, even! He couldn't rely on a perfectly planned series of events unfolding just the way he'd set it up from afar - he had to go out and set those events up, start laying the groundwork, if you will. In the process, he did things that would be considered "Martial" as I understand 4e's usage of the term, but which would also fall under the category of being a "Controller."

(Keep in mind that there is apparently going to be a more robust social encounter system than in 3e. This is another area where a Martial Controller might be designed to excel.)

Could you represent a character like young Vetinari as a high-Int Rogue, play his controllish aspects via Diplomacy and Bluff checks and roleplay, and assume he later took Expert levels or equivalent? Probably.

But if you're LOOKING for a Martial Controller, a character extrapolated from young Vetinari in the way the Wizard was extrapolated from Thoth-Amon, Gandalf, Rhialto and co. seems like a very good fit. Toss in a more infantry-oriented young Thrawn, the less experienced/non-Silverburg strategists from Suikoden, certain aspects of Hyuga Ricdeau and Delita Hyral, and you have at least enough to make a class out of.

 

[Gloombunny]

I disagree. Everything we've seen of the Warlord indicates that he is a Cha-based buffer/healer who can also fight.

This is flatly not true. We've been specifically told that warlords have Int-based abilities. Most of the things we've heard about warlords doing are tactical, not inspirational.

How in the world is Howardian style magic supposed to take place on the skirmish level? Even the most powerful sorcerers of the Hyborian Age take a great deal of time to cast their spells and mostly use them on the army or nationwide scale. Their combat abilities, so to speak, tend to stem from some of them being, in effect, martial artists.

In other words, you'd have to extrapolate for playability.

D&D magic isn't extrapolated from Howard-style magic. It's a completely different thing. If you want a literary inspiration for D&D magic... well, try Vance. Not just for the spell memorization thing (which Gygax grossly altered from the Vancian version), but for spells that can be cast as quickly as a swordsman can thrust and can disable or kill even a strong warrior.

But, ok, that's besides the real point about extrapolating from large-scale strategy to something a D&D character can make use of. I am very skeptical that such an extrapolation is even possible. Can you describe how it might work? Just saying "extrapolate!" is not a convincing argument. Tell us how. Give us an example or two. Bccause I'm just not seeing it.

 

[MoogleEmpMog]

This is flatly not true. We've been specifically told that warlords have Int-based abilities. Most of the things we've heard about warlords doing are tactical, not inspirational.

We'll see. Haven't Warlords been called out as having Cha as a *primary* ability? I get the impression everyone has abilities related to every ability score, while still having a strong focus.

D&D magic isn't extrapolated from Howard-style magic. It's a completely different thing. If you want a literary inspiration for D&D magic... well, try Vance. Not just for the spell memorization thing (which Gygax grossly altered from the Vancian version), but for spells that can be cast as quickly as a swordsman can thrust and can disable or kill even a strong warrior.

Vance's casters can actually pull off the 'kill a warrior before he kills you' trick, I agree - once. They have such limited spellcasting capacity that they can be mooked by even the weakest foes in numbers, unless they're bonded to an extraplanar entity.

True Vancian magic still doesn't have anything like the workaday utility (in and out of combat) D&D magic has; the 'slots' are too limited, and the spells, if anything, TOO powerful. Most Vancian spells are on the level of 7th, 8th or 9th level spells, with an equivalent number of slots; they're also quite dangerous even to the caster should he make the slightest mistake (as Cugel does, to his much-deserved chagrin).

But, ok, that's besides the real point about extrapolating from large-scale strategy to something a D&D character can make use of. I am very skeptical that such an extrapolation is even possible. Can you describe how it might work? Just saying "extrapolate!" is not a convincing argument. Tell us how. Give us an example or two. Bccause I'm just not seeing it.

All right.

I'm going to phrase these in semi-3.5/SWSE terms, because that's really all we have to go on. That means no hp loss from morale and references to 3.5ish terms, but a rough approximation of per encounter stuff.

Here's some:

Sow Discord, Lesser
Strt 1
Frequency: Per Encounter
Duration: Instant
Range: 5 squares + 1 square/level
Action: Move
You sow discord among your opponents, disrupting their lines of battle and exposing vulnerable foes.
Benefit: You may cause two target opposing creatures within 1 square of each other to exchange positions. This is a mind-affecting effect.

Devastating Ambush
Strt 2
Frequency: Per Day
Duration: 1 round
Range: 25 squares + 5 squares/level
Action: Swift
You plan ambushes so deftly, even the toughest victims struggle to survive.
Benefit: Any flat-footed opposing creature successfully attacked this round suffers an additional 1d6 + Strategist level (max 1d6+10) damage from the attack. This damage is precision-based and stacks with sneak attacks, sudden strikes and similar abilities.

Sow Discord
Strt 3
You can shake up an entire battle line by confusing the enemy commander.
Benefit: As lesser sow discord, except you may target a number of creatures equal to 2 x your Planner level, all of which must be within range. No creature may move more than its space due to this action.

Stunning Reversal
Strt 4
Frequency: Per Encounter
Duration: Instant
Range: Self
Action: Immediate
Your opponent is his own worst enemy. Actually, you are, but no need to let him know that!
Benefit: Due to your anticipation, you turn a single successful attack against the attacker. Any damage that would be dealt to you is instead dealt to the attacker. Damage Reduction and Regeneration are applied after damage is redirected.

Sow Discord, Greater
Strt 5
Range: 25 squares + 5 squares/level
Enemy forces deploy as you want them to.
Benefit: As lesser sow discord, except as above, and you may target any number of creatures within your line of sight and within range. No creature may move more than its space due to this action.

Critical Ambush
Strt 6
Frequency: Per Day
Duration: 1 round
Range: 25 squares + 5 squares/level
Action: Swift
When you launch an ambush, you and your allies reap foes like wheat before the scythe.
Benefit: Any flat-footed opposing creature successfully attacked this round is automatically treated as though his attacker threatened a critical hit.

Everything Is Proceeding As I Have Foreseen
Strt 9
Frequency: Per Day
Duration: 1 day or until activated, 1 round after activation
Range: See below
Action: 10 minutes to prepare, Full-Round to activate
You knew what your enemies would do before they did. After all, you were the one who convinced them to do it.
Benefit: When you use this ability, you choose a number of specific creatures equal to your Strategist level. You do not need to know their names, but must be aware of them as individuals (so, 'an orc' is not sufficient, but 'the chieftain of the orcs besieging our town' is), or as a unit provided you can target the entire unit (so, 'a company of orcs' is not sufficient, but 'the orc chieftain's ten elite bodyguards' is). The ability is then readied.
When you choose to activate this ability, you may choose the next actions and targets of all the creatures you chose that are within your line of sight and hearing.
After one round, you no longer control the creatures in question, but the consequences of their actions may force them to continue to act in your favor (for example, if the orc chieftain's bodyguards killed him due to a misunderstanding you sowed, they will either have to take over the clan or switch sides).
This is a mind-affecting, language-dependent effect.

 

[MoogleEmpMog]

Addendum to my series of Strategist powers:

I picture most of these being either 'attack rolls' (Int-based) vs. Will Defense or skill checks based off Knowledge (Tactics), also vs. Will Defense (or Knowledge (Tactics) if it's higher?).

The class itself would be somewhere around Cleric and Rogue in fighting prowess: probably a d8 hit die, 3/4 BAB, Good Will and Fort, proficient with Light Armor. Its progression would be similar to a "full caster's."

Of course, I just threw all this together as an example. The finished product would probably look quite different.