Anyone want to help adjudicate a Wish spell?

[Infiniti2000]

My apologies to the Three Haligonians. I admit I got emotionally involved and I let it color my comments.

In an effort to redeem myself, let me summarize the topic somewhat. As all involved agree, the actual desired outcome of the wish is beyond the scope of the wish spell. Therefore, the DM (as I see it) as one of two options (particularly per the rules on wish spells).

1. Pervert the intent. Many have provided suggestions on this, some of them quite brilliant (remind me to ask this same question some time in the future -- a perverted wish might even make an intriguing plot for an adventure).

2. Partial fulfillment. This is the option I feel you should take, basically in game mechanics doing a rez, but in description do as the wish stipulates but for one PC (perhaps the husband).

The biggest reason I like #2 is that I loathe perverting wishes. I hated it in 1e and I still hate it today. However, I don't think the OP wants this thread to derail into that topic, so I will stop.

 

[Plane Sailing]

First, I think the sorcerer should know what she's asking for exactly. You're not undoing one bad event - you're undoing three.

Only if you define it that way. I wouldn't, for instance, I'd say one episode of poison gas = one event. If one had been crushed, one had been poisoned and one had been eviscerated then I'd be more likely (but not certain) to call it several events - and I'd still allow a wish to rewind time so that the whole battle plays out again.

It is interesting that the DM and players have already agreed that this use of a wish spell goes beyond the spells normal parameters. If I were the DM I would allow it without even thinking twice - the sorceress is down *more than a quarter of the xps to get to next level*, it keeps the game moving, the sorceress has made a heroic sacrifice and the game goes on.

I'm amazed how many times I see wish come up for discussion and DMs recommend hitting the poor PC with a nerf bat

Cheers

 

[Kelleris]

In an effort to redeem myself, let me summarize the topic somewhat. As all involved agree, the actual desired outcome of the wish is beyond the scope of the wish spell. Therefore, the DM (as I see it) as one of two options (particularly per the rules on wish spells).

-- ka-snip --

Not quite. Notice the RAW:

You may try to use a wish to produce greater effects than these, but doing so is dangerous. (The wish may pervert your intent into a literal but undesirable fulfillment or only a partial fulfillment.)

The DM is perfectly within his or her rights to simply grant the wish, and be done with it if that seems the best option. This is not cheating on the part of the players or use of some finicky rules loophole to "break" the spell. Powerful and harmless wishes are part of the rules, they just aren't completely guaranteed like the safe wishes.

Were I worried that my players were counting their coppers and trying to figure out a good bargain - which hardly seems to be the case given the surrounding circumstances - I would either surreptitiously remove some treasure from the just-finished battle or cause some of the sorceress's gear to be consumed by the spell to fulfill it, with the expectation that grateful party members would make sure she did not bear the brunt of the equipment value loss.

In any case, I would make sure they realized that abuse in the future will lead to me becoming more and more capricious and arbitrary in granting wishes. Or maybe they'd just have to learn the hard way, depending on circumstances.

Speaking as a player, I am almost always willing to spend gold over XP. It may not be rational, but chosing 25k gold over 5k XP is a no-brainer for me. I might evenfork over the 75k and keep my XP, in fact.

 

[Talmun]

Only if you define it that way. I wouldn't, for instance, I'd say one episode of poison gas = one event. If one had been crushed, one had been poisoned and one had been eviscerated then I'd be more likely (but not certain) to call it several events - and I'd still allow a wish to rewind time so that the whole battle plays out again.

It is interesting that the DM and players have already agreed that this use of a wish spell goes beyond the spells normal parameters. If I were the DM I would allow it without even thinking twice - the sorceress is down *more than a quarter of the xps to get to next level*, it keeps the game moving, the sorceress has made a heroic sacrifice and the game goes on.

I'm amazed how many times I see wish come up for discussion and DMs recommend hitting the poor PC with a nerf bat

Cheers

While you could rule that the breath weapon is one event no matter how many saves it incurs if that's the way you see it; but I'm pretty sure that's not the way the Wish spell is written - and that's the sticking point for most people. If a Wish is made that is outside the guidelines of what Wish can do....what happens?

I honestly don't think that coming up with an interesting and logical repercussion for what amounts to a triple-power wish spell is hitting anyone with the nerf bat

That being said, I have allowed similar bending and breaking of the rules in extreme and/or 'heroic' situations. I guess it's all in how it's played off.

 

[Kelleris]

I honestly don't think that coming up with an interesting and logical repercussion for what amounts to a triple-power wish spell is hitting anyone with the nerf bat.

I believe whether or not this is truly a triple-power wish is still a bone of contention, actually. I personally don't think it is; I think it's a very reasonable use of the spell that strays slightly outside the bounds of totally safe. As I (and several others) have stated, it may or may not have unintended repercussions, though in this situation I don't think it should, or that they should be applied with an eye toward creating plot hooks, not punishing money-grubbing players or balancing the spell.

EDIT: And I'll point out again that simply granting the wish neither bends nor breaks the spell. It could have been dangerous, but the DM decided that this time it's safe. That "may" is in the spell description for a reason.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

That being said, I have allowed similar bending and breaking of the rules in extreme and/or 'heroic' situations. I guess it's all in how it's played off.

As I said pages ago, and Kelleris pointed out again just a few posts up, allowing this wish is not breaking any rules. The text of the Wish spell specifically says it can accomplish greater things than what's listed, and the only consequence is that casting such a Wish "may be hazardous."

It's entirely DM fiat. Not "the DM can break the rules" but "whatever the DM decides is explicitly allowed by the rules."

If I were the DM I would allow it without even thinking twice - the sorceress is down *more than a quarter of the xps to get to next level*, it keeps the game moving, the sorceress has made a heroic sacrifice and the game goes on.

I'm amazed how many times I see wish come up for discussion and DMs recommend hitting the poor PC with a nerf bat

I agree 237%.

 

[Talmun]

As I said pages ago, and Kelleris pointed out again just a few posts up, allowing this wish is not breaking any rules. The text of the Wish spell specifically says it can accomplish greater things than what's listed, and the only consequence is that casting such a Wish "may be hazardous."

It's entirely DM fiat. Not "the DM can break the rules" but "whatever the DM decides is explicitly allowed by the rules."I agree 237%.

My last statement was poorly worded, I didn't intend to imply that any rules are being broken, just that this falls squarely in the "unsafe" category for Wish, and while the wish in question may not be against the rules, allowing it out of hand may (that's may, not will) bring more trouble than it's worth. That's what I get for posting at work...

You're right, it is up to the DM, but the DM in question asked the board for opinions, and he is getting them.

 

[Kelleris]

You're right, it is up to the DM, but the DM in question asked the board for opinions, and he is getting them.

Boy, is he ever getting them...

 

[Lord Pendragon]

My last statement was poorly worded, I didn't intend to imply that any rules are being broken, just that this falls squarely in the "unsafe" category for Wish, and while the wish in question may not be against the rules, allowing it out of hand may (that's may, not will) bring more trouble than it's worth. That's what I get for posting at work...

You're right, it is up to the DM, but the DM in question asked the board for opinions, and he is getting them.

Fair enough on all counts.

This does bring up, IMO, a key point, though. J of Three Haligonians knows his group better than we can. My guess is that he has a pretty good idea as to whether this wish is an attempt to get three True Ressurections "on the cheap" or the result of role-playing in the moment, as R of Three Haligonians tells us.

If the players aren't trying to get away with anything, I see no danger in simply granting this Wish. Perhaps that's why I've been arguing so much for doing just that: because in his shoes--with my group--I'd be entirely certain that it wouldn't lead to poor player behavior in any way.

If, on the other hand, J DM's for a group that tends towards the powergaming side (nothing wrong with that, I tend toward it myself. ) and sometimes tries to bend the rules to their advantage, then indeed there may be a danger in being lenient here--the players might see it as a weakness in J's adjudication that they can take advantage of.

In the end, J will have to make the decision as to what sort of players he is DMing for. If he can get away with it, I still say just grant the wish. If he can't, then he's definitely within his rights (and encouraged) to interpret the spell more strictly to prevent abuse.

 

[Talmun]

<snip>

If the players aren't trying to get away with anything, I see no danger in simply granting this Wish. Perhaps that's why I've been arguing so much for doing just that: because in his shoes--with my group--I'd be entirely certain that it wouldn't lead to poor player behavior in any way.

<snip>

True, true.

The primary reason I'm in favor of some kind of cosmic reaction is that I see it as a chance for the characters to influence and be influenced by the game-world; an opportunity for, as I've said, role-play, story and character development.

My group probably wouldn't abuse a light hand and a generous granting of Wish either, although they might joke about taking advantage of it for a while.

Be sure and let us know what you end up doing, J.