AoO and Cleave

[Crothian]

Oh, I'm sure it works fine and it isn't unbalanced as a rule. Cleaving off an AOO just jars with my sense of "fairness".

PCs and NPCs can both do it and do, so it seems fair to me.

 

[Infiniti2000]

An attack of opportunity is essentially a free action, and it's a bad precedent to allow chaining free actions.

You mean like allowing someone to shoot more than one arrow in a round? What does an archer with a BAB of +16 do with his 2nd, 3rd, and 4th attacks? Or, can a wizard cast a quickened spell (with material components) and a regular spell (with components) in the same round? That requires 3 free actions (one for the quickened spell and two each for the componets).

It's not only not a bad precedent, it's not the defining precedent. Multiple free actions already happen. Of course, an AoO (and a cleave) are not free actions, but that was your analogy, so I ran with it.

 

[Eye Tyrant]

PCs and NPCs can both do it, so it seems fair to me.

I agree Crothian. PCs and NPCs alike benefit, so there is a balance with it. The fact that a PC's summoned wolf was taken out by it and that no one in the party yet has Cleave is *likely* the cause of the players irritation. Had I foreseen the situation and explained ahead of time that this was possible, I doubt the player would have been upset.

 

[Storyteller01]

FAQ and various interpretations of the RAW say yes.


Spellcasters get to use gamer bending effects. Getting attacks out of turn is one of the fighters special tricks.

 

[HeapThaumaturgist]

I agree Crothian. PCs and NPCs alike benefit, so there is a balance with it. The fact that a PC's summoned wolf was taken out by it and that no one in the party yet has Cleave is *likely* the cause of the players irritation. Had I foreseen the situation and explained ahead of time that this was possible, I doubt the player would have been upset.

Had one of them thought of it first and did it themselves I doubt they'd have been upset.



--fje

 

[FireLance]

PCs and NPCs can both do it and do, so it seems fair to me.

Not fairness in the sense of PC vs NPC, but fairness in the sense of a combatant who has not lowered his defenses enough to attract an AOO effectively gets hit by one because someone else did.

 

[Shin Okada]

Not fairness in the sense of PC vs NPC, but fairness in the sense of a combatant who has not lowered his defenses enough to attract an AOO effectively gets hit by one because someone else did.

But fast of all, even if not done with AoO, Cleave allows an extra attack against A when some other B is dropped. Did A "lowered defenses"? May or may not depend on each one's interepretation. But anyway, Cleave is such feat from the beginning. Whether it is triggered by regular attack or AoO does not change much.

 

[beepeearr]

I like to use the invisible dire lemming example to illustrate this. Let's say there are two fighters, A and B, facing each other in combat. B has Combat Reflexes and Great Cleave, and has true seeing cast on him. Someone (maybe an ally of B) suddenly releases a pack of invisible dire lemmings (like dire rats, but more suicidal) and they run behind B. As they do so, they provoke AOOs for movement from him. B gets several attacks on the dire lemmings because of Combat Reflexes, and he easily kills each with one blow and Cleaves into A. The dire lemmings don't distract A because he can't see them. As far as A is concerned, he's keeping a wary eye on B, and defending himself normally against him. However, B suddenly erupts into a flurry of motion, landing several solid blows on A.

I honestly think that if this happened to me I'd be more then a little distracted and confused when the the guy in front of me starts swinging wildly into midair, apparently making the air bleed as his sword came away bloody. I can't help but smile thinking of how that must have looked to fighter A, or of the look on fighter A's face when the blood started to fly. "Man what is that moron doing now, WHAT THE..."

Ahhh...funny

 

[FireLance]

But fast of all, even if not done with AoO, Cleave allows an extra attack against A when some other B is dropped. Did A "lowered defenses"? May or may not depend on each one's interepretation. But anyway, Cleave is such feat from the beginning. Whether it is triggered by regular attack or AoO does not change much.

The difference is, on his turn, the cleaver (call him C) could have attacked either A or B, so if he has some ability that allows him to attack both A and B (Cleave, or Whirlwind Attack), it's fine with me. Out of his turn, he can only attack someone if he provokes an AOO. If B provokes one, I think it's fair for C to attack him. However, if A doesn't do anything to provoke an AOO, I don't think it's fair for C to get an extra attack against him by cleaving off B.

 

[Shin Okada]

The difference is, on his turn, the cleaver (call him C) could have attacked either A or B, so if he has some ability that allows him to attack both A and B (Cleave, or Whirlwind Attack), it's fine with me. Out of his turn, he can only attack someone if he provokes an AOO. If B provokes one, I think it's fair for C to attack him. However, if A doesn't do anything to provoke an AOO, I don't think it's fair for C to get an extra attack against him by cleaving off B.

Yeah. But time is meant to be flowing. Turn is just a game mechanism. In that "round", he could have chance to attack either A or B.

I don't see much difference in "realism" on allowing usual cleave but not on AoO. And the rule is clear. You can Cleave on AoO.