Spycraft 1.0 has the same rules, which is what prompted this poll/discussion. I was intrigued by the missing rule set, and wondered how much it would affect the usual group if the rules suddenly went missing. In D&D, because of the focus on melee combat, AoOs are much more useful, but the D20 Modern and the appearance of guns I thought it might change the balance somewhat.
AoO in D20 Modern?
- Thread starter tjoneslo
- Start date
In d20 Modern, being flatfooted doesn't really affect much. By mid-levels, most characters have more Defense from class defense bonuses (which don't go away when you're flatfooted) than from Dexterity. Not all, certainly, but it just wouldn't matter as much. And there's also no sneak-attacking, so you wouldn't be suffering any extra damage.
The only case where becoming flat-footed in mid-combat would matter is if the GM allowed Knockout Punch to work on you if you did something to make yourself flat-footed again, even though the book says that only your first attack on a flat-footed opponent auto-crits (with rule-question-and-answers confirming that it's designed for "first round of combat" only).
And given how few people get Knockout Punch, it's not real likely to come up very often. You'd make a d20 Modern player think twice about taking that concentration-disrupting action if you said that taking that action caused him to lose his Class bonus to defense as well as his Dexterity, though...
The only case where becoming flat-footed in mid-combat would matter is if the GM allowed Knockout Punch to work on you if you did something to make yourself flat-footed again, even though the book says that only your first attack on a flat-footed opponent auto-crits (with rule-question-and-answers confirming that it's designed for "first round of combat" only).
And given how few people get Knockout Punch, it's not real likely to come up very often. You'd make a d20 Modern player think twice about taking that concentration-disrupting action if you said that taking that action caused him to lose his Class bonus to defense as well as his Dexterity, though...
takyris said:
You're right... and another reason why I don't like d20 Modern.
I just realized that. Your defense bonus from levels (and other mobility based bonuses) is an active defense and shouldn't apply if you're flat footed. It's not making your skin tougher, it's letting you move a bit faster or more precisely or react faster. By definition of being flatfooted, you don't know whats going on and don't get your dex bonuses.
Clearly logic dictates that you don't get your defense bonus for reacting to danger when you can't react to danger (there is a houserule I would make for d20 Modern), but the rule says otherwise. So there isn't any arguing with that.
True20 and Spycraft 2.0 (the only other games I've read that give level dependant defense bonuses) both make it clear that the defense gained through dodge/dex/levels is not applicable for your flatfooted defense.
So, I take that back. Unless you houseruled in the mobility based defense bonuses to be dropped with Flatfooting, it wouldn't be a very good alternate method at all.
Denaes said:
Glad I could help.
I wouldn't go that far. You can, of course, and there's nothing illogical about it, but in D&D, hit points are not only a measure of toughness but of ability to react in order to minimize or avoid attacks that would kill a normal person. Unless you want to declare that anyone flatfooted can be coup de grace'd (which isn't waaaaay far from what Black Company does, no, with its killer surprise-round system?) to force a save-or-die and bypass hit points entirely, you're accepting that a highly trained person, even when surprised, will react in some way.
It's a continuum. d20 Modern says that if you're flatfooted, you don't get the extra bonus from your natural agility (Dex score), but your training and experience (class bonus) always applies unless you're helpless. Conan, however, says that you don't get any kind of bonus when you're stunned or flat-footed (class-based bonuses to Defense, seperated into blocking and dodging), so in the Conan world, training and experience don't matter if you're not aware of the situation. Those are both valid concepts for one type of adventure or another, but they're quite different. In Conan, if you don't see the attack coming and you don't have Uncanny Dodge, you ARE gonna get hit. In d20 Modern, you can still instinctively dive to the side.
Yep. And there are times in my game where I'd like to see the class bonuse to Defense go away if the target is flatfooted. If I were running a pulp-detective-noir game, for example, it might make holding a gun on someone a lot more threatening. Because in those kinds of stories, if the bad guy has a gun on you, you're pretty much helpless unless you can Bluff them into distraction. (In those games, I'd also increase all gun damage by 2 dice, so that almost any normal shot can break the MDT and force a Massive Damage save.)
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