AoOs and Cleave/Great Cleave

[frankthedm]

How is this different than Cleaving during your turn? You drop a foe, you Cleave into another one. The target you are Cleaving into did nothing to provoke the Cleave, the initial target did (by not having the hit points to remain concious and dropping to the ground).

So you have no problem with "exploiting" someone who drops unconcious in order to attack someone else, so long as it's on your turn?

Because some of us feel a cleave is cutting down an unimportant foe to get to the real target of the attack in one swing.

ANd for those who do not wish to allow it the rules do say resolve the AoO then keep going with the normal turn so there is some room for denying the cleave on those grounds.

An attack of opportunity "interrupts" the normal flow of actions in the round. If an attack of opportunity is provoked, immediately resolve the attack of opportunity, then continue with the next character’s turn (or complete the current turn, if the attack of opportunity was provoked in the midst of a character’s turn).

 

[RigaMortus2]

Because some of us feel a cleave is cutting down an unimportant foe to get to the real target of the attack in one swing.

So do you feel that, in most situations, it is always better to attack the peon first and hope you drop them so you can cleave into the real threat VS. just attacking the real threat to begin with?

ANd for those who do not wish to allow it the rules do say resolve the AoO then keep going with the normal turn so there is some room for denying the cleave on those grounds.

Wouldn't the Cleave rules override this?

If you deal a creature enough damage to make it drop (typically by dropping it to below 0 hit points or killing it), you get an immediate, extra melee attack against another creature within reach.

Which comes first? The "immediate" Cleave or "then continue with the next character’s turn" after you've taken the AoO?

But I see your point, and that is good support for your position. I just personally think you would apply the immediate cleave before you continue with the next character's turn. And this would apply anytime you get an "immediate" action, not just from Cleave.

 

[frankthedm]

So do you feel that, in most situations, it is always better to attack the peon first and hope you drop them so you can cleave into the real threat VS. just attacking the real threat to begin with?

Thats how almost everyone i have seen who has cleave uses it. Sword and fist even reccomended that back in 3.0.

And this would apply anytime you get an "immediate" action, not just from Cleave.

Cleave is not defined as an immediate action. It may sync up very well, but the use of the term started after he core were printed and unlike feather fall, cleave did not get changed to immediate.

 

[RigaMortus2]

Thats how almost everyone i have seen who has cleave uses it. Sword and fist even reccomended that back in 3.0.

I've rarely ever played with anyone who uses Cleave in this manner. The most common use I've seen has been using Cleave to try and wade through a group of minions in order to get to the primary target behind them (usually the BBEG). Sure, it's come up a few times, where if you are surrounded by peons while fighting a BBEG and they are attacking you, and you know you can drop them with one shot, it would be benefical to attack the peons first and then Cleave into the BBEG. But IME this hardly comes up in "most situations". Especially since the DM controls the NPCs and can control the battlefield better than a player could.

Cleave is not defined as an immediate action. It may sync up very well, but the use of the term started after he core were printed and unlike feather fall, cleave did not get changed to immediate.

I never suggested Cleave was an immediate action. Nor did I use the term immediate action. What I said was you get an "immediate" action. I purposely put quotes around the word "immediate" only to signify that I was not talking about the term "immediate action". I am sorry if that did not come across clearly. At any rate, I think at the very least we can agree that Cleave gives you an immediate attack, right?

So to clarify what I was saying at the end of my last post... I would rule that anytime you gain something "immediately" (whether it is a free attack, a 5 foot step, or anything else) during an AoO, it resolves immediately before you return to the normal flow of combat.

 

[Korak]

Two things:

1. I am sorely tempted to write a script that posts this question on the board once a week. If I am going to see it anyway, I may as well be the cause of it. (just kidding, please don't ban me)

2. Maybe I have such a hard time seeing Frank's point of view (and the many others who share it... just using you, Frank, cause you're the main contributor in this thread)... is that most DMs in whose games I have played don't have mooks provoking AoOs in the first place. It might just be an artifact of the style my groups play in, but anyone with 10 int and a few BAB, we treat as smart enough to not draw AoOs from movement unless there is an extremely pressing issue that forces their movement in a certain way (like a bullrush for example). Also, it may just be style of play again, but past 5th level or so, it is rare for my groups to fight even mooks that can drop in one hit (ignoring crits)... and if you're at all familiar with my posts, you know I don't build low damage characters as a rule. So, ultimately, what I am saying is that it just doesn't happen that much in my experience, so even if it feels a bit off to you, why crush the fighter's fun. He paid two feats, let him have an extra swing.

Either way, Rule 0 exists for a reason. RAW says yes, but each DM/group may make up its own mind(s).

 

[molonel]

The RAW says yes. I've never seen an argument that convinced me otherwise, either.

Bag of rats notwithstanding.

 

[frankthedm]

He paid two feats, let him have an extra swing.

He can have his extra swing on his own turn. I even let him have his extra AoO swing on those who draw AoOs.

 

[Korak]

He can have his extra swing on his own turn. I even let him have his extra AoO swing on those who draw AoOs.

Do you feel that cheapens Combat Reflexes? since it gives another route to multiple AoOs per round?

Imagine for example Fighter Bob (with high str, Great Cleave, and 10 dex) is standing in front of his party defending them. Goblins A, B, and C are 30 feet away and have been hasted by their BBEG master. They have the same initiative count. Goblin A moves first, trying to pass by Bob to get to his squishy caster friend. Bob cuts him down with his AoO. By your rules, Bob gets to retain an attack to use if someone else provokes an AoO from him this turn to compensate him for not allowing him to cleave off an AoO. So next Goblin B attempts the same move... with the same result. Then Goblin C does the same. So, because of your rule, Fighter Bob was able to defend his party in a way that normally only a fighter with combat reflexes and 14 dex could do.

 

[molonel]

He can have his extra swing on his own turn. I even let him have his extra AoO swing on those who draw AoOs.

Houserule however you like. But there is nothing in the nature of AoO's that shows me it's either necessary, or enhances the game in any important way. It cheapens an effect that someone paid two feats for, or three if they took Great Cleave.

The only hole I've ever seen is the bag of rats trick, and there are other ways to solve that little exploit if someone tries it.

 

[irdeggman]

He can have his extra swing on his own turn. I even let him have his extra AoO swing on those who draw AoOs.

Hmm but that doesn't make any sense at all per the RAW.

Since no two characters actions occur at the same time then only one character can provoke an AoO at a time and unless the character has Combat Reflexes he can only take a single AoO per round.

If a rogue can apply sneak attack damage during an AoO why can't a fighter use his Cleave feat to swing at a different foe? The rules say he can and teh FAQ reinforced this.

As I said it is not a matter of "fairness" it is a matter of meeting the conditions necessary to utilize cleave, just like sneak attacks.