AoOs and Cleave/Great Cleave

[molonel]

Then we disagree a cleave spawned from an AoO should work similar to an AoO.

A cleave spawned from an AoO is not an AoO. It's a cleave. They are triggered by different events. Someone who is dead hasn't dropped their guard.

You can make a cleave attack and an AoO in the same round, whether or not you have Combat Reflexes.

 

[Nail]

A fighter with the Cleave feat gets an attack of opportunity against a foe moving through her threatened space. She kills him in one blow--would she be able to use Cleave to attack another enemy after her AoO?

Yes.

Absolutely, and without doubt: Yes.

 

[billd91]

How is this different than Cleaving during your turn? You drop a foe, you Cleave into another one. The target you are Cleaving into did nothing to provoke the Cleave, the initial target did (by not having the hit points to remain concious and dropping to the ground).

So you have no problem with "exploiting" someone who drops unconcious in order to attack someone else, so long as it's on your turn?

It's very different from cleaving on your own turn. On your own turn, you choose the target. Cleave allows you to make an easy kill so fast you still have time to redirect your attack to another legitimate target. In effect, the cleave feat makes the time taken to drop the first target negligible as long as there's another legitimate target to switch to.
When an AoO opportunity comes up, should you elect to take it, you don't choose your target at all, you only get to target the creature who provoked the AoO. Outside of the character's turn, there should be no other legitimate target to use cleave on.
To look at it from the point of view of the target, a character should not be subject to AoO unless they drop their guard and provoke one themselves. They should not become vulnerable because someone else did and went down.

 

[Nail]

Cleave is a feat.

Feats are meant to do special things.

With the cleave feat, you can cleave off of an AoO. Doing so is a special ability, granted by the feat.

Simple.

 

[irdeggman]

It's very different from cleaving on your own turn.

Does dodge apply even when you've completed your turn?

How about Power Attack?

Alertness?

Weapon focus?

Weapon specialization?



There are many, many more examples of feats that apply even when it is not your turn. To use that as justification is very weak, IMO.

 

[cignus_pfaccari]

To look at it from the point of view of the target, a character should not be subject to AoO unless they drop their guard and provoke one themselves. They should not become vulnerable because someone else did and went down.

Why not? If someone standing by me goes down, that changes my defensive situation. If someone on the other side of my opponent goes down, maybe I let my guard down because I was trying to flank.

An attack is an attack. An attack of opportunity is special only in how it is generated.

Brad

 

[Nifft]

One gets to take AoOs because the target let thier guard down. The person being cleaved into never dropped thier guard.

"Damnit, Bob, I thought you were covering my flank! You're useless!"

In a team combat, I can easily see how person A dropping his guard causes injury to person B. The mechanical support is limited, but at least it's there.

Cheers, -- N

 

[molonel]

It's very different from cleaving on your own turn. On your own turn, you choose the target. Cleave allows you to make an easy kill so fast you still have time to redirect your attack to another legitimate target. In effect, the cleave feat makes the time taken to drop the first target negligible as long as there's another legitimate target to switch to. When an AoO opportunity comes up, should you elect to take it, you don't choose your target at all, you only get to target the creature who provoked the AoO. Outside of the character's turn, there should be no other legitimate target to use cleave on.
To look at it from the point of view of the target, a character should not be subject to AoO unless they drop their guard and provoke one themselves. They should not become vulnerable because someone else did and went down.

"Choosing your target" is not what triggers the cleave. Dropping your target below zero hit points, or killing them, is what triggers it. Your logic is faulty.

 

[mvincent]

"Damnit, Bob, I thought you were covering my flank! You're useless!"

In a team combat, I can easily see how person A dropping his guard causes injury to person B.

For our purposes, Bob is mostly dead (and it is deadness, more than dropping his guard, that caused injury to his ally). He would be unable to hear the scolding.

 

[RigaMortus2]

For our purposes, Bob is mostly dead (and it is deadness, more than dropping his guard, that caused injury to his ally). He would be unable to hear the scolding.

Perhaps he was thinking that in his head, not speaking aloud scolding his unconcious/dead ally.