D&D 4E AoO's are still in 4e

[Midknightsun]

To a trained fighter? I'd say the first... I mean if they get you on the ground, they have an advantage.

In D&D? Yup

In real life? Not so much.

Many real life fights end up going to ground. And the guy on the bottom isn't always the one at the disadvantage.

But again, working w/i the framework of D&D being "tripped to death" is quite an ignoble and frustrating way to go out, getting caught in that AoO loop sucks.

 

[Piratecat]

One of the 4e focuses is that combat is more mobile; it's easier to get moved around the battlefield by your foes. You'll see this in the red dragon fight description, where the dragon gets to use his tail as a free action to move a PC.

I have no doubt that the AoOs take this sort of movement into account. It would stink to have a foe irrestibaly move you past other foes, all of whom got a free shot on you.

 

[IanB]

AOOs add a lot of tactical depth to combat, and I'm glad they're staying. As clunky as they sometimes are, combat would IMO be a lot less interesting without them.

 

[Umbran]

AOOs add a lot of tactical depth to combat, and I'm glad they're staying. As clunky as they sometimes are, combat would IMO be a lot less interesting without them.

And, to be honest, they do make some amount of sense. Mucking about doing things that ought to make you vulnerable to the enemy while you're standing right next to him ought to get you slapped upside the head, right?

 

[mmu1]

In D&D? Yup

In real life? Not so much.

Many real life fights end up going to ground. And the guy on the bottom isn't always the one at the disadvantage.

The only real-life situation I can think of in which the guy lying on the ground isn't always at a disadvantage is if he happens to have a gun...

There's a big difference between a fight going to the ground with someone trying to work his jiu jitsu from the bottom (where he's still at a disadvantage, just not as much of one as he would be if he tried to throw punches while flat on his back), and one fighter knocking the other one to the ground, but remaining standing himself - especially if lethal weapons with any kind of reach are involved.

Not being able to use footwork to defend yourself - which is what being on the ground comes down to - is a killer. So is getting up when someone doesn't want to let you, or is trying to hit you.

That being said, I would still like to see the D&D rules for trip made less punishing - the game doesn't attempt to be a realistic combat simulation, and there's no good reason to allow one single tactic to be so extremely overpowering.

 

[GoodKingJayIII]

It's probably going to look a lot like the Saga list of AOO Provokers, which is basically two things:

1) moving out of a threatened square
2) stuff that is distracting

 

[Jackelope King]

All you need is Improved Trip and it's more like-

"I trip you and get a free attack while you're prone."
"I get up."
"I trip you and get a free attack while you're prone again."
"I get up again."

Ad nauseum, it's really annoying.

That's actually not correct. Standing up draws an attack of opportunity, but it doesn't "interrupt" the act of getting up, even if you trip them successfully again. You're essentially tripping them "again" while they're still prone.

Think of it in terms of states:

1. Trip changes your state to prone.

2. Standing change your state from prone to standing.

3. The attack of opportunity to trip takes place before you complete the action to stand, so while you're prone, you are rendered prone again.

4. Your stand action resolves, and you are changed from prone to standing. The trip when you chose to stand up from prone did not change your state to one that invalidated your "stand up" action.

So the endless chaining of trips actually doesn't work by the rules as written.

...

That said, I'd like to see AoOs cleaned up too. I love the idea, and I like that they add some interesting decisions in combat (and that they keep every friggin orc on earth from just strolling by the fighter and squishing the wizard), but I feel for folks whose games are slowed down by it.

 

[(contact)]

Many real life fights end up going to ground. And the guy on the bottom isn't always the one at the disadvantage.

He is if his enemy has a spear.

 

[blargney the second]

2) stuff that is distracting

Such as?

 

[Horacio]

It's probably going to look a lot like the Saga list of AOO Provokers, which is basically two things:

1) moving out of a threatened square
2) stuff that is distracting

I hope so, as SAGA AoOs work rather well, way better than D&D. Or at least, players seem to understand more easily what provokes an AoO and what not.