AOO's have to go, or be changed

[Remathilis]

How bout because AoOs are the logical extension of the "Mother May I" method of determining character actions.

DM: The Ogre hits you for 23 damage.
PC: YOW! I'm going to die if I take another hit like that. I'm drinking my healing potion.
DM: You can't do that. The ogre gets a free attack.
PC: Really? Ok then, I'll run away from him instead.
DM: You can't do that. The ogre gets a free attack.
PC: You're joking right? Ok, I'll knock the club out of his hand.
DM: Do you have Improved Disarm?
PC: No. I have cleave...
DM:Then if you attempt to disarm him, he gets a free attack.
PC: Huh. Is there ANYTHING I can do that won't result in him hitting me?
DM: Not really.
PC: ... I attack the Ogre.

 

[Oldtimer]

DM: The Ogre hits you for 23 damage.
PC: YOW! I'm going to die if I take another hit like that. I'm drinking my healing potion.
DM: You can't do that. The ogre gets a free attack.
PC: Really? Ok then, I'll run away from him instead.
DM: You can't do that. The ogre gets a free attack.
PC: You're joking right? Ok, I'll knock the club out of his hand.
DM: Do you have Improved Disarm?
PC: No. I have cleave...
DM:Then if you attempt to disarm him, he gets a free attack.

Up until here, I don't really see a problem. Fishing out a vial to drink instead of parrying the ogre's club? Turning around to run instead of dodging the ogre's blows? Trying to knock the weapon out of the hands of a hulking brute, without proper training? Those are risky things? Yeah... :\

PC: Huh. Is there ANYTHING I can do that won't result in him hitting me?
DM: Not really.
PC: ... I attack the Ogre.

Now here I have a problem. He's not automatically hitting you - he'd get an extra chance to hit you before you can act, because you want to take a chance to improve your position. That chance comes with a risk - no surprise to me.

Are you complaining about AoOs because this hypothetical fighter is low on options in a one-on-one fight against an ogre? I'd be more worried if the rules allowed me to perform any of those things with impunity while facing a ten foot tall assailant on my own.

 

[DM_Blake]

Yeah. This doesn't make much sense. "Dude with Club" can normally whack "Guy next to him" 10 times per minute with his club. But if "Guy next to him" is chugging a gallon of milk, Dude with Club can hit him 20 times per minute with his club. Because "Guy next to him" is chugging milk, "Dude with Club" is twice as fast.

The logical extension of AoOs is that everybody gets one free attack each round that they can use on anyone who isn't defending themself.

It's not quite as flagrantly silly as that.

The assumption is that when youi're not chugging milk, you're protecting yourself. Sod "Dude with Club" has to work harder, feint, lunge, and most importantly, spend time parrying and dodging your attacks. In between all that, he gets some openings once in a while to swing his club at you.

But if you're chugging milk, you stop threatening "Dude with Club" so he can concentrate that energy that was wasted on protecting himself into swinging more often at you.

 

[Plane Sailing]

Exactly, that's why you don't need to get a free attack against a paralysed opponent, you just make a coup de grace and kill him.

A paralysed character, or an unconscious character can be considered to be out of combat, the same way he doesn't defend himself from you, you also don't need to be defending yourself from him, you both are not "exchanging blows, dodges and parries" anymore, so none of you can really lower your guard and provoke an AoO.

Also, a paralysed opponent is like a door, and if you are in combat and need to break down a door for any reason, you don't get a AoO against it just because it's not fighting back or defending itself.

I'm surprised to find anyone defending the current position!

I agree with two... it is a wierdness at the heart of AoO which makes the whole thing a little whacky.

My favourite solution is "you can't take an action that would occur an AoO", with the optional extension of "unless you can make an appropriate Concentration check" in the same way as casting defensively.

 

[Lackhand]

But, specific to chugging milk, he can't do that while you're asleep.

 

[DM_Blake]

Anything that currently provokes an AoO, instead you lose your Dex bonus until the start of your next action...?

The edge case I am most concerned about isn't casting spells or drinking potions, it is the oddity of Withdraw/Retreat caused by sequential initiative. There really does need to be some way to strike at someone who moves away from you, otherwise chases never end. A runs, B catches up, A runs, B catches up, etc.

Actually, the 3.x edition allows for endless chases, even with AoO, because the person retreating can use the Withdraw action which doesn't provoke an AoO. He can then move his full movement range and even get outside of his pursuer's charge range (assuming equal movement rates, like a human chasing an orc).

So I don't see AoO as a solution to the edge caseyou described.

Maybe I misunderstood and you weren't proposing that AoO actions prevent this edge case, in which case we agree.

 

[Plane Sailing]

Actually, the 3.x edition allows for endless chases, even with AoO, because the person retreating can use the Withdraw action which doesn't provoke an AoO. He can then move his full movement range and even get outside of his pursuer's charge range (assuming equal movement rates, like a human chasing an orc).

With equal movement rates, a withdraw is double your speed and a charge is double your speed and attack, unless they have withdrawn round a corner so you can just move up to them and force them to withdraw round another corner or face an AoO. i.e. barring terrain which prevents a charge, movement rate from withdraw and charge at the same.

If they provoke an AoO by attempting a Run action away from you, you take the AoO and then Run up next to them yourself, putting them in the same position again.

 

[DM_Blake]

I'm surprised to find anyone defending the current position!

I agree with two... it is a wierdness at the heart of AoO which makes the whole thing a little whacky.

My favourite solution is "you can't take an action that would occur an AoO", with the optional extension of "unless you can make an appropriate Concentration check" in the same way as casting defensively.

I don't see how you can advocate that.

This isn't chess. In chess, you can tell the bishop he can only move diagonally. If he wants to move like a rook, you can tell him "nope, you're a bishop, move diagonally because the rules say so."

But putting in arbitrary "You can't do that" rules in a RPG, specifically applied to things people CAN do, is counterproductive.

What if that guy says "Well, I am hoping the ogre will miss, so I'll take my chances." What then? Still tell him "Nope. You can drink the potion if you were 10' farther away, but you can't drink it, at all, no chnce, impossible, where you are standing"?

That would make no sense.

Tell him it's crazy to even try. Tell him it's suicidal. Tell him the ogre will cream him into a pink paste on the floor. But don't tell him he can't.

What if it's not an ogre. What if it's an immensely powerful bad something, and there is no way the guy can win. But he does have a teleport spell and his only chance of survival is to teleport home to safety. His choices are fight and die, or teleport and live. I'm pretty sure he would insist on trying the teleport, and won't take "you can't" as an answer.

Unless we really are playing chess.

 

[two]

Exactly, that's why you don't need to get a free attack against a paralysed opponent, you just make a coup de grace and kill him.

A paralysed character, or an unconscious character can be considered to be out of combat, the same way he doesn't defend himself from you, you also don't need to be defending yourself from him, you both are not "exchanging blows, dodges and parries" anymore, so none of you can really lower your guard and provoke an AoO.

Also, a paralysed opponent is like a door, and if you are in combat and need to break down a door for any reason, you don't get a AoO against it just because it's not fighting back or defending itself.

Any others have pointed out, this counter argument lacks a lot of uumph.

If somebody wants to attack somebody who is paralyzed as a free action (an AOO), they should have the right to do that, minimally.

They can also, if they want to do a more serious attack, start a coup de grace.

The point is, AOO's are free, don't take actions. They should be allowed if you are paralyzed, since they are allowed when you are trying to stand up.

The other side of your argument involves flavor text which is not going to get very far.

A low-level unarmored unarmed wizard facing a dragon is hardly "exchanging blows, dodges and parries" with anyone. The person CAUSING the AOO to be created (like our wizard) does not need to be armed, in fact, can be a total wimp. In fact, if an unarmed wizard tried to hit a monster with his fist, that in itself would generate an AOO. Not only is the wizard not exchanging blows, he is making sure not to. The enemy, facing the wizard, is not parrying or dodging anything, since the wizard is not attacking.

Yet the Wizard generates an AOO for casting a spell next to the dragon.

It's the wizard's ACTION that is generating the AOO.

There is no "dance of death-dealing thrusts and blows" going on between the dragon and the wizard, and when the wizard pauses for a moment to cast a spell, the dragon cuts through the wizard's defense. No, the wizard is just standing there, NOT attacking, though presumably defending, and casts the spell, which... generates the AOO.

You stated: "Also, a paralysed opponent is like a door, and if you are in combat and need to break down a door for any reason, you don't get a AoO against it just because it's not fighting back or defending itself."

Your PC can be paralyzed and you can manifest a psionic power that generates an AOO (I think this is legal), and in this case the "door-like" PC, which is not fighting back or defending itself, gets hit. Yet the "door-like" PC which does not manifest a psionic power does not.

You can explain; I can't.

 

[VirgilCaine]

Just have a rule saying...sorry can't normally do that (drink potion) in a threatened square.

Oh you insist? Make a concentration check. Fail it and can't drink the potion this round, fail it by 5 or more...drop the potion (ruining it).

I was going to complain about dropping potions--but then potions are too expensive and not useful enough in combat to drink in combat, so...never mind.

As for the whole Mother May I part of AoOs--I just remember that the game doesn't make a whole lot of sense if you look at it too hard, and try not to think about it.