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AOO's have to go, or be changed

RigaMortus2 said:
Have we mentioned Cleave off of AoOs yet? Just because my buddy did something foolish, provoking an AoO and getting killed, why should I get a free (Cleave) attack against me? What did I ever do? :(
Fought a guy with the coordination to recover quickly from dropping someone.
 

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DM_Blake said:
We can even try to rationalize it by saying that an AoO is a quick backhanded attack you make when something catches your eye, or when a foe drops his guard. It’s instinctive. It’s a quick reaction you make with very little conscious direction. But a paralyzed or dying opponent doesn’t do anything to trigger that adrenaline surge, so no AoO. If you want to hit a paralyzed or dying opponent, you have to expend sufficient conscious volition that it counts as one of your actions on your turn.

That’s a stretch, but maybe not too much of a stretch to justify a game where PCs can survive their first couple of levels.

A nicely written post...just this little "stretch" falls flat if you check what the rules actually allow as an AoO...it includes Trip attacks, Disarming, and even Grappling (at least per SRD). I'd say it's a pretty big stretch to view a Grapple attempt as an AoO as an instinctive backhand swipe, as much as it sounds nice to do so. :)
 

Iron Heroes only allows a regular melee attack on an AoO. Methinks "immediate action melee attack" will be the default replacement for AoOs in 4e, although what do I know?
 

Face it, AoO are a metagame mechanic used to interject a real-time reaction to turn based gaming and enables a higher degree of tactical action.

The mechanic is a bit clumsy, but how to retain the character's option to act while balancing a risk to doing non-combat actions while threatened.

One thing to remember is that the entire DnD combat is abstract, and the AoO within that abstractness is also abstract.. perhaps the lost hit points based on an AoO 'hit' represents the lost vigor and luck of the character...

Anyway, a possible alternate version could be:

Drawing AoO remains the same.

An AoO is only a single attack with the melee weapon readied in your primary hand. You cannot cleave on an AoO.

Taking an AoO can only be done if either your previous action or your next action includes a melee attack.
As an immediate action you may declare that a target you threaten has drawn an AoO from you.

Combat Reflexes:
Each AoO taken beyond the first incurs a -2 penalty to hit and to AC that last until the end of your next turn.


This version does ramp up the damage that can be dealt in a round and makes Combat Reflexes a very valuable feat... but it does solve the 'why can't I hit a sleeping guy' argument.


:)
 

VirgilCaine said:
Fought a guy with the coordination to recover quickly from dropping someone.
Mm-hmm. Such great coordination that his recovery grants him an attack against you that he wouldn't have gotten if he had nothing to recover from.

Nice try making it sound sensible, but there's a big ol' non sequitor there.
 

xechnao said:
By early opportunities to attack you mean that you will be trading your attacks of your normal round with AoO?
Yes, exactly. As I said earlier:
If the goal is to inject real-time elements into a turn-based game -- and I think you're largely right in that -- then Attacks of Opportunity do not have to be free attacks.

Realistically, an orc should not be able to run right past Boromir simply because it's the orc's turn, not Boromir's -- but all we need to fix that problem is to allow Boromir to interrupt the orc's movement by taking his turn early. He doesn't need a free action, just an early one.​
 

Mmadsen is showing off his Champions chomps. The concept of taking immediate actions at the expense of future ones kind of originated there.
 

DM_Blake said:
********************

The only real problem I see here comes from the stationary nature of D&D combat. We put our miniatures on the table, then we only move them on our turn. They move once every 6 seconds, then stand still, frozen in time on the battle mat. Each miniature spends the full 6 seconds stationary in a little 5’ square. No two creatures move at the same time – each miniature moves his full move, makes his attacks, then freezes in place for the next miniature to move.

This gives us a warped perspective of what is really happening during that combat.
And I say this needs fixing. But how? *That* is the bigger question here.

In one of the older editions (I forget if it was 0e or 1e or an optional rule) you declared your actions before the round began, then rolled initiative. This way, using d6 initiative, if your declared action was to move from A to B and your initiative was 3, it was pretty easy to tell where you were each segment - on a 6, you're *here*, on a 5 *here*, etc. using fractions of the distance. And if the lightning bolt resolved on 4 and you happened to be passing through it at the time, too bad. :)

There has to be a way to get away from the "I do all my stuff, then you do all your stuff" model that doesn't grind everything to a halt. One simple method of getting at least partway there (though it does slow things down) is to give everything its own initiative. If you have 3 attacks in a round, each gets its own initiative. If you're going to move and attack, you move on your first initiative and attack on your second. This still doesn't solve the "I'm here, then I'm there" movement problem...movement should take game-measurable time...but it's a start. I'm also a huge fan of re-rolling initiative each round, to avoid people basing their tactics on "who goes first"; in a d20 system with potentially massive init. modifiers this isn't very practical (particularly if everything gets its own init.) but in a 1e d6 init. system it works just fine.

The other thing that has to be allowed is for things to happen at the same time. Do 3 people all have init. 15? Fine...they all act on init. 15. In cases where it makes a difference who acts first, e.g. an archer shooting at someone whose simultaneous action is to move behind cover, a simple roll-off to see who acts first solves the issue...it comes up less often than you might expect.

Now, as for AoO's...there *is* a place for them now and then, but only in the following situations and even here not every time:
- If someone turns his back and flees from melee, the opponent should get an AoO.
- If someone drinks a potion in melee, or rummages through her backpack, then AoO.
- If someone is foolish enough to try casting a spell in melee, then AoO*.
- If someone fumbles, assuming your game uses fumble rules (depending on the type of fumble).

* and the spell should automatically fail if the AoO hits - none of this concentration stuff. If you want to cast spells, get behind the front line...and if you're still under attack, get help.

I don't agree with these AoO situations:
- For simply moving through someone's threat zone unless the attacker has *no* other melee opponents and knows the move is coming (in other words, is prepared).
- An AoO against someone getting to her feet while still capable of defending, unless she attacks or otherwise leaves herself vulnerable.
- An AoO against someone using a bow *unless* the attacker is not the target and has no other melee opponents.
- An AoO from any opponent not smart enough to recognize the opportunity.

AoO is a reasonable idea that the 3e rules kinda killed through overuse. I hope 4e seriously cuts back on them.

Lanefan
 

Felon said:
Mm-hmm. Such great coordination that his recovery grants him an attack against you that he wouldn't have gotten if he had nothing to recover from.

Nice try making it sound sensible, but there's a big ol' non sequitor there.

Like I said before--don't look too hard at D&D or expect it to make sense. It's not that kind of game.
 

Felon said:
Mmadsen is showing off his Champions chomps. The concept of taking immediate actions at the expense of future ones kind of originated there.
Very true. It's been a while, but I recall that the main use of that concept in Champions was to take a dodge action now, when you realized the Big Bad Evil Guy was targeting you this time.

It's an elegant mechanic, because it doesn't increase the number of actions anyone gets; it just moves them around a bit, to avoid some of the issues you get with turns.

Both Champions and GURPS tried a number of tricks to deal with turns. For Champions, the main innovation was giving different characters different speed scores, and the scale didn't start at one and jump to two or three, as in most games. That is, you didn't get to act every round, with better characters getting two or three actions per round. Instead, a typical character got to act on, say, four rounds out of twelve, and a faster character might act five, six, or seven times. The little table for this was a bit of a pain, but it meant that characters didn't cluster all of their actions together, while everyone else waited their turn.

GURPS tried to break turns into tiny, tiny slices of time, one second each, so you'd move on one turn, then attack once on another turn, etc. That can cause its own problems, particularly if you layer all kinds of rules on top of such a finely granular system.
 

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