Appeal of the defender?

[muffin_of_chaos]

I think its wrong to force someone to play a class he doesn't want to. It's not fun for them.

You don't have to force them to play the class but if they come to understand the power of a Defender mayhap they'll Want to play the class?...

 

[Charwoman Gene]

I think its wrong to force someone to play a class he doesn't want to. It's not fun for them.

Then what's the problem? Either soften the opposition or let the party take a tittle more damage.

Your players are fools if they don't see the appeal of playing a mix-it-up character. Jumping into mobs of enemies drawing them onto you, the wizard blasting them off you and stuff. Totally awesome.

I hire dumb thieves and Spellcasting nancy boys to do the lame focus fire bit.

 

[Sojorn]

My fears grow as I see more and more preview material for 4th.

Compare the Justicar's powers with the Stormwarden. The Stormwarden can deal automatic damage to everyone adjacent to him and whirlwind slash them while hurling them back.

The Justicar? He can get hurt instead of his ally... and he can give his allies better saving throws (meaning he remains incapicitated while they are free to act).

The Justicar also gets a 10 square burst AE that only targets enemies.

10. That's most of the battlefield. And it does half damage even on a miss

The Stormwarden gets to hit, what? Everyone adjacent to him at best? Pfffft. And he has to give up his ability to use a shield to do that too. His utility ability isn't even that great. He can drop his defenses to hit a bit more often. Which would be fine if he was ranged but seems suicidal for a meleer. A meleer that needs to be surrounded to deal the most damage at that.

I think I'll take the ability to wear plate-mail, use a shield and still nuke most of the battlefield, thanks.

Just let them play as they will. The problem will sort itself out.

 

[FadedC]

You could argue that there has never really been a real defender until 4e (not counting some prestige classes or possibly the knight in PHB2). In 3e a fighter was more of a melee damage dealer. He could strap on a shield and use wepon expertise, but then there was nothing to keep the enemy from just ignoring him and eating somebody more threatening.

It seems that a 4e fighter can still go the damage dealing route, and in fact a high damage fighterwith a 2-handed sword is a much more dangerous foe not to attack. That might be the best option for your players, as opposed to a more defensive sword and shield fighter or a paladin. The designers did say that people who play fighters like to dish out damage and they made sure that was an option.

 

[jackston2]

The Justicar also gets a 10 square burst AE that only targets enemies.

10. That's most of the battlefield. And it does half damage even on a miss

The Stormwarden gets to hit, what? Everyone adjacent to him at best? Pfffft. And he has to give up his ability to use a shield to do that too. His utility ability isn't even that great. He can drop his defenses to hit a bit more often. Which would be fine if he was ranged but seems suicidal for a meleer. A meleer that needs to be surrounded to deal the most damage at that.

I think I'll take the ability to wear plate-mail, use a shield and still nuke most of the battlefield, thanks.

Just let them play as they will. The problem will sort itself out.

The problem here is that if the Stormwarden and Justicar are players in a team, then the Stormwarden CAN jump into the fray and be awesome and not have to worry about his fragility because he knows the Justicar will take care of him (like use his nuke to attract all the damage, and otherwise use his defender abilities to support the Stormwarden's showboating).

 

[Charwoman Gene]

otherwise use his defender abilities to support the Stormwarden's showboating).

This is only a problem if the players make it a problem.

This isn't a game mechanics issue.

 

[Sojorn]

The problem here is that if the Stormwarden and Justicar are players in a team, then the Stormwarden CAN jump into the fray and be awesome and not have to worry about his fragility because he knows the Justicar will take care of him (like use his nuke to attract all the damage, and otherwise use his defender abilities to support the Stormwarden's showboating).

So? If there's a player that enjoys covering for other players like that, they'll take a class like the Justicar.

If not, the player that likes things like the Stormwarden will have to figure out some other means to survive his recklessness. Don't just hand them an NPC that does it for them. They -will- have the tools. Let them figure out ways around the problem.

 

[FadedC]

The problem here is that if the Stormwarden and Justicar are players in a team, then the Stormwarden CAN jump into the fray and be awesome and not have to worry about his fragility because he knows the Justicar will take care of him (like use his nuke to attract all the damage, and otherwise use his defender abilities to support the Stormwarden's showboating).

I'm not really sure what justicar nuke we are talking about.....my printout at least doesn't make any mention of his powers beyond a few innate abilities. But so far we haven't seen any defender powers that will save a striker who overextends himself and runs into the middle of a group of enemies.

 

[Hammerhead]

It's not like the absence of a Defender will spell certain doom for a group. It probably means a surplus of Strikers, which makes the group more viable for quickly spiking down enemies but less able to take damage themselves.

 

[Hammerhead]

The problem here is that if the Stormwarden and Justicar are players in a team, then the Stormwarden CAN jump into the fray and be awesome and not have to worry about his fragility because he knows the Justicar will take care of him (like use his nuke to attract all the damage, and otherwise use his defender abilities to support the Stormwarden's showboating).

That sounds like less of a problem and more of a feature, something cool for both characters to do.