TSR Appendix N Discussion

[Sacrosanct]

Probably not.

Three Hearts and Three Lions was first published in novella form in 1953, prior to the publication of Lord of the Rings.

Now, you might think that maybe Anderson got it from The Hobbit ... but while it was published in 1937, and it was a decent success, it was marketed as a children's book and wasn't the smash success we think of today. It wasn't until after LOTR and, especially, the 60s that the cult of Tolkien really started.

So... maybe, but probably not. Unless someone knows more about Anderson's reading habits in the early 50s.


ETA- ninja'd by Cadence.

Parmandur beat me to it, but even outside of knowing that, it's entirely likely that a fantasy author of the 50s was familiar with Tolkien prior to the 60s even if the general populace wasn't.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

Poul Anderson was a giant Tolkien fan. IIRC, he wrote gushing fan mail to Tolkien in the 40's because he loved the Hobbit so much. The Hobvit was marketed to children (like young E. GAary Gygax), but Poul Anderson wasn't the kind to let himself be boxed in by publisher convention.

Later on, Anderson actually broke off relation with his publisher, Ace, because he was apoplectic about how they treated Tolkien.

Weird, can you source the gushing letters (oops)? While I've seen the discussion more in the context of The Broken Sword, there are quite a few people who talk about Anderson's research into Scandinavian myths ... and why he was more influential on other writers (like Moorcock) than Tolkien was.

Do you know where the information about the 1940s came from?

ETA- and the reason I think it's important to be careful with this kind of thing is we don't want to "read back" the cult of Tolkien into the past. Of course writers knew each other, but it doesn't mean that Tolkien was the only writer around. Just because Leiber, for example, dedicated a story to Anderson doesn't mean that his S&S stories ripped him off.

 

[Parmandur]

Weird, can you source the gushing emails? While I've seen the discussion more in the context of The Broken Sword, there are quite a few people who talk about Anderson's research into Scandinavian myths ... and why he was more influential on other writers (like Moorcock) than Tolkien was.

Do you know where the information about the 1940s came from?

I can guarantee that he didn't send any emails.

It was because he went deep into Germanic folklore that he was deeply aware of Tolkien as fiction writer and academic. Let me sew what I can dig up, I'm going off something I read in a Poul Anderson author foreware like 30 years ago, lol.

 

[Sacrosanct]

It would be like saying Tolkien didn't know about Lord Dunsany, because The King of Elfland's Daughter (Dunsany's most popular book) wasn't well known until the late 60s despite being written well before The Hobbit. I think we can agree that Tolkien was probably more than aware of Dunsany, just like Poul was more than aware of Tolkien.

Kind of how most people in general don't know who Tad Williams is, but fantasy authors and most of us probably do.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

It would be like saying Tolkien didn't know about Lord Dunsany, because The King of Elfland's Daughter (Dunsany's most popular book) wasn't well known until the late 60s despite being written well before The Hobbit. I think we can agree that Tolkien was probably more than aware of Dunsany, just like Poul was more than aware of Tolkien.

Kind of how most people in general don't know who Tad Williams is, but fantasy authors and most of us probably do.

Again, the reason I am having trouble with this is because Anderson also published The Broken Sword, and IIRC, this debate about Tolkien* has already been hashed out and the general consensus is that Anderson's elves, trolls, and so on are the result of his separate readings.


*Anderson published this the same year as the LOTR starting coming out, but it didn't achieve any real traction until the 70s when people started clamoring for more "Tolkien stuff." Because of that, a lot of people falsely assumed it was a Tolkien ripoff.

 

[Parmandur]

Again, the reason I am having trouble with this is because Anderson also published The Broken Sword, and IIRC, this debate about Tolkien* has already been hashed out and the general consensus is that Anderson's elves, trolls, and so on are the result of his separate readings.


*Anderson published this the same year as the LOTR starting coming out, but it didn't achieve any real traction until the 70s when people started clamoring for more "Tolkien stuff." Because of that, a lot of people falsely assumed it was a Tolkien ripoff.

OK, found it, I have a copy of Anderson's essay on Tolkien in this book:

https://www.amazon.com/Meditations-Middle-Earth-Writing-Tolkien-Pratchett/dp/0312275366?ref=d6k_applink_bb_dls&dplnkId=d943b060-2620-4432-b889-12ea084baca5

I got the timeline a little off, Reginald Bretnor lent Anderson a first edition copy of the Hobbit in the "early 50's", while the Broken Sword he lays out as having been written in 1948. But, yeah, Anderson liked Tolkien, a lot. The essay compares Tolkien positively to Shakespeare, Homer, Lord Dunsany, and E. R. Eddison.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

OK, found it, I have a copy of Anderson's essay on Tolkien in this book:

https://www.amazon.com/Meditations-Middle-Earth-Writing-Tolkien-Pratchett/dp/0312275366?ref=d6k_applink_bb_dls&dplnkId=d943b060-2620-4432-b889-12ea084baca5

I got the timeline a little off, Reginald Bretnor lent Anderson a first edition copy of the Hobbit in the "early 50's", while the Broken Sword he lays out as having been written in 1948. But, yeah, Anderson liked Tolkien, a lot. The essay compares Tolkien positively to Shakespeare, Homet, Lord Dunsany, and E. R. Eddison.

On that, I have no doubt! IIRC, Anderson read a lot of the same source material that Tolkien did. And, as they say, game recognizes game.

The part I pushback on is that Anderson in any way was copying or indebted to Tolkien. Anderson was a giant in his own right. He will not be remembered like Tolkien ... no one will ... but he does not deserve to have people say that he was copying him. At all.

Again, Moorcock (again, IIRC) explicitly said he modeled Elric after Anderson's elves ... not Tolkien's.

 

[Parmandur]

On that, I have no doubt! IIRC, Anderson read a lot of the same source material that Tolkien did. And, as they say, game recognizes game.

The part I pushback on is that Anderson in any way was copying or indebted to Tolkien. Anderson was a giant in his own right. He will not be remembered like Tolkien ... no one will ... but he does not deserve to have people say that he was copying him. At all.

Again, Moorcock (again, IIRC) explicitly said he modeled Elric after Anderson's elves ... not Tolkien's.

Yeah, the timeline doesn't match up, it seems. Actually a good third of this essay is Anderson comparing his approach to Elves with Tolkien, and what different influences and goals they were going for in their stories. A very good analysis, really, Anderson was a smart dude.

That said, I firmly believe that Gygax was more influenced by the Hobvit than he wanted to admit after being sued.

 

[Sacrosanct]

On that, I have no doubt! IIRC, Anderson read a lot of the same source material that Tolkien did. And, as they say, game recognizes game.

And this is it, right here. Both were inspired by the same Nordic folklore. Which just goes to show just how much Tolkien was taking from existing folklore, and yet some people get really riled up at any mention of Tolkien copying from others. Kinda weird. Feels almost like some folks have deified him to a point where Tolkien's creative genius was so great he created everything, including fantasy. He was a genius, but he did copy a lot.

 

[Parmandur]

And this is it, right here. Both were inspired by the same Nordic folklore. Which just goes to show just how much Tolkien was taking from existing folklore, and yet some people get really riled up at any mention of Tolkien copying from others. Kinda weird. Feels almost like some folks have deified him to a point where Tolkien's creative genius was so great he created everything, including fantasy. He was a genius, but he did copy a lot.

Can't say that I've ever seen much of that...?