Applying Turning damage

[William_2]

Hello!

Something from the All About Clerics article that confused me, on Turning:

"If he doesn't have enough Hit Dice available to affect a creature, there's no effect, and he cannot use those dice to affect another, more distant undead creature that's inside the burst."

But the example using Jozan in the PHB clearly describes the process that I thought was correct: lacking enough turning damage to affect the Wight, he instead applies it to five zombies. Who may have been the closest, perhaps- it doesn’t say. But it seems to me that he CAN "use those dice to affect another, more distant undead creature".

Which is correct: skip something too powerful and apply damage elsewhere, or the All About Clerics idea? Or am I mixed up about the whole thing and they are the same?
Thanks!

 

[Jdvn1]

When in doubt, go with the book.

 

[Geoff Watson]

Turning affects the weaker undead first, not the closest.

Geoff.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Turning affects the weaker undead first, not the closest.

Not according to the description of Turn Undead.

"You turn the closest turnable undead first."

So it comes down to a question of what 'turnable' means. Possibilities:

1. The undead creature is subject to the Turn Undead ability.
2. The undead creature is subject to the Turn Undead ability, and is within the Hit Dice range allowed by the cleric's Turning check.
3. The undead creature is subject to the Turn Undead ability, and is within the Hit Dice range allowed by the cleric's Turning check, and the cleric has sufficient Turning Damage remaining to affect the creature.

Skip's article could be read to mean 1 or 2. I'd need to check the PHB example referenced above to see whether the example distinguishes between 2 and 3.

-Hyp.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

The PHB example implies #3.

 

[Hypersmurf]

The PHB example implies #3.

I don't get that.

A wight has 4 HD. A zombie has 2 HD.

If his Turning Check was sufficient to turn a 4HD wight (since that's what would distinguish between cases 2 and 3), how can he have insufficient damage to turn a 4HD wight, but enough to turn 10 HD of zombies?

-Hyp.

 

[William_2]

In the PHB example, Jozan does NOT roll well enough to turn a Wight. At the same time, all of the damage he rolls is applied to the Zombies- so, the Wight does not seem to soak up 4 HD worth of failed Turning damage, as the All About Clerics article seems to imply. I'm getting the sense that nobody would do it that way, so perhaps I have just misunderstood the article.

Looking at it again, the example does not mention which Undead are closest, even though (I agree) the text says that is the order you turn them in. I thought this ability was cut and dried, and now I am confused!

I also see the PHB example as fitting the third of the listed possibilities above. Which is starting to help. I think the article is not allowing for #3. That was what surprised me.

 

[Hypersmurf]

In the PHB example, Jozan does NOT roll well enough to turn a Wight.

Well, in that case, the example doesn't distinguish between case 2 and case 3.

So, Skip's article can be read to mean case 1 or case 2.
The PHB example can be read to mean case 2 or case 3.

Case 2 satisfies both.

So if Jozan rolled enough on his turning check to turn 4HD, but only rolled 3HD of turning damage, then by case 2, the wight is considered 'turnable' (within the turning check limit). The turning damage is applied to the wight until either the damage runs out or the wight is turned, before considering more distant undead. Since the wight has more hit dice than the available turning damage, it's all 'soaked up', and no zombies are turned.

It's an interesting case where rolling lower on his turning check (2 or 3HD max) would have resulted in turning one zombie, while rolling higher results in turning no zombies.

That oddity is enough to make me personally favour case 3, despite Skip's article... but I can see how his article can agree with the PHB, depending on one's definition of 'turnable'.

When Skip says "does not have enough hit dice available", he appears to mean damage dice, not maximum-turnable-hit-dice dice... which tallies with case 2.

-Hyp.