Appropriate use of Spot check

[irdeggman]

From the SRD:

SPOT (WIS)
Check: The Spot skill is used primarily to detect characters or creatures who are hiding. Typically, your Spot check is opposed by the Hide check of the creature trying not to be seen. Sometimes a creature isn’t intentionally hiding but is still difficult to see, so a successful Spot check is necessary to notice it.
A Spot check result higher than 20 generally lets you become aware of an invisible creature near you, though you can’t actually see it.
Spot is also used to detect someone in disguise (see the Disguise skill), and to read lips when you can’t hear or understand what someone is saying.
Spot checks may be called for to determine the distance at which an encounter begins. A penalty applies on such checks, depending on the distance between the two individuals or groups, and an additional penalty may apply if the character making the Spot check is distracted (not concentrating on being observant).

Condition Penalty
Per 10 feet of distance –1
Spotter distracted –5

Read Lips: To understand what someone is saying by reading lips, you must be within 30 feet of the speaker, be able to see him or her speak, and understand the speaker’s language. (This use of the skill is language-dependent.) The base DC is 15, but it increases for complex speech or an inarticulate speaker. You must maintain a line of sight to the lips being read.
If your Spot check succeeds, you can understand the general content of a minute’s worth of speaking, but you usually still miss certain details. If the check fails by 4 or less, you can’t read the speaker’s lips. If the check fails by 5 or more, you draw some incorrect conclusion about the speech. The check is rolled secretly in this case, so that you don’t know whether you succeeded or missed by 5.
Action: Varies. Every time you have a chance to spot something in a reactive manner you can make a Spot check without using an action. Trying to spot something you failed to see previously is a move action. To read lips, you must concentrate for a full minute before making a Spot check, and you can’t perform any other action (other than moving at up to half speed) during this minute.
Try Again: Yes. You can try to spot something that you failed to see previously at no penalty. You can attempt to read lips once per minute.
Special: A fascinated creature takes a –4 penalty on Spot checks made as reactions.
If you have the Alertness feat, you get a +2 bonus on Spot checks.
A ranger gains a bonus on Spot checks when using this skill against a favored enemy.
An elf has a +2 racial bonus on Spot checks.
A half-elf has a +1 racial bonus on Spot checks.
The master of a hawk familiar gains a +3 bonus on Spot checks in daylight or other lighted areas.
The master of an owl familiar gains a +3 bonus on Spot checks in shadowy or other darkened areas.

At 400 ft looking down at guards with the top of the castle in the background - well that is probably "difficult to see" at the very least.

It would be much easier to spot a creature flying in the air with the sky as a background, IMO.

But it doesn't look like the DM had either side make spot checks - IMO your flying PC came out ahead here.

The DM determines when either side is aware in a combat, to do so he may call for spot/listen checks but it is his call.

 

[Pbartender]

Hello, everyone... I'm one of the other players in this game and said DM is my wife, so I've got an interest in seeing this resolved definitively.

For those of you whoare suggesting that Spot checks should always apply, may I present a situation? As Mr. Pico suggested above, let's start with a football field (American style ).

I stand at one end of the stadium, in the stands, and Mr. Pico is in the stands at the other end, 400 feet away. It is a bright, sunny day, and the stadium is empty, except for us two. the SRD guidelines for "Stealth and Detection in Plains" (and by the description of a plain, a football field and stadium is argueably a very small one) suggests 6d6x40 feet as the initial distance for encounters. That's 240-1,440 feet, so for now, let's assume that we rolled higher than 400 feet, which I think is reasonable.

If, in this empty stadium, Mr. Pico was just walking out in the open down the empty rows of seats 400 feet away from me, should I have to make a Spot check with a -40 modifer simply to notice he was there? Especially if I was specifically looking for him? I'd need at least a Spot check of at least +20 to even have the slightest chance of seeing him.

Now, if he was crouched behind the seats (actively hiding), or the stands were crowded with football fans (concealment), I can understand that sort of a Spot check. But, if you applied the Spot check as is to every situation, the vast majority of people would be half blind at about 100 feet, and effectively blind past about 200 feet.

This, essentially, was the situation. Two medium-sized humanoids, who weren't actively hiding and with no intervening obstructions or concealment, pacing back and forth in an open space, but who were judged to be effectively hidden because of the Spot check range modifers, even thought the Spotter was told precisely where to look for them.

Our Spotter, a flying wizard at the time, wanted to get just close enough to drop a long-range fireball on their heads, but was told he would have to get within a hundred feet or so because of that range penalty.

 

[Nail]

Two medium-sized humanoids, who weren't actively hiding and with no intervening obstructions or concealment, pacing back and forth in an open space, but who were judged to be effectively hidden .....

Here's your problem.

They were not "effectively hidden". In fact, they weren't hidden at all. Since they were not hidden, there is no call for a Spot check...... They just are seen.

Done.

 

[irdeggman]

Hello, everyone... I'm one of the other players in this game and said DM is my wife, so I've got an interest in seeing this resolved definitively.

Your wife eh? Then you are wrong by default.

This, essentially, was the situation. Two medium-sized humanoids, who weren't actively hiding and with no intervening obstructions or concealment, pacing back and forth in an open space, but who were judged to be effectively hidden because of the Spot check range modifers, even thought the Spotter was told precisely where to look for them.

See above quote from the skill concerning "difficult to see". Also the flying wizard should have been easier to see then the guards due to lack of anything causing no-contrast in shape/color - but it appears that the DM didn't have the guards make a spot check either - {worked in your favor, IMO}

Our Spotter, a flying wizard at the time, wanted to get just close enough to drop a long-range fireball on their heads, but was told he would have to get within a hundred feet or so because of that range penalty.

I disagree with the DM's call on this one though. w/i 100 ft due to distance penalties shouldn't be a factor.

But the bottum line is that the DM decides when one side is aware of the other (see PHB pg 133). If one side is aware and the other is not then there is a surprise round, after that everyone acts according to initiative.

So how much movement could the flying wizard get before being noticed because of movement (you can't hide while flying since there is almost always nothing to use to hide) and then still get a surprise round (which is what you were attempting to get)?

 

[Nail]

Your wife eh? Then you are wrong by default.

(LOL)

Exactly.

 

[Pbartender]

See above quote from the skill concerning "difficult to see".

Yes, I saw that... And saw your interpretation of it. That doesn't mean I agree with you, or that you're right.

Right now, I can look out the window of my workshop. Across the street, on the opposite side of a pond standing in front of a line of trees, I can see a man fishing. According to Gmaps Pedometer, he is nearly 400 ft away from where I'm sitting. I wouldn't say he's "difficult to see". For that matter there's a building down the street, about 1000 feet away, and I can distinctly see a man standing and smoking a cigarette.

Go to that website. Look up where you are right now. Find something 400 feet (about 0.076 miles) away. Go look at it. It's not as far as you might think.

So, how do you determine "difficult to see", which is a rather relative term here for so instrumental a skill? Would "camoflaged, concealed or hiding" be a good rule of them, do you think? If so, the guards in question fit none of those three descriptors.

but it appears that the DM didn't have the guards make a spot check either - {worked in your favor, IMO}

It appears that way simply because I didn't mention them. She gave them Spot checks with the same modifers. Our wizard jsut happened to succeed before they did.

If one side is aware and the other is not then there is a surprise round, after that everyone acts according to initiative.

That's the point... We were "aware" of the guards. Our rogue had scouted them out. The wizard wanted to use the surprise round to cast a fireball. It was ruled that he could see the
roof-platform that the guards were standing on, but he couldn't see the guards themselves so that he accurately target both of them in the area of effect -- he just wanted to be certain that he'd hit them both.

 

[irdeggman]

That's the point... We were "aware" of the guards. Our rogue had scouted them out. The wizard wanted to use the surprise round to cast a fireball. It was ruled that he could see the
roof-platform that the guards were standing on, but he couldn't see the guards themselves so that he accurately target both of them in the area of effect -- he just wanted to be certain that he'd hit them both.

Then combat started immediately. (per the RAW):

You got one free standard action. Flying is a standard action (or move depending) then so is casting the spell. So which one was done?

Knowing exact dimensions of spell effects is another of the inherent rules in the "abstract" combat system.

The farther away a person is the harder it is to accurately gauge distances. When we are talking about measuring 5 ft squares - well that is really falling into meta-gaming IMO. But like I said the RAW on combat is extremely abstract. So there is actually rule-logic that can be applied to both sides of this situation.

 

[Nail]

It was ruled that he could see the
roof-platform that the guards were standing on, but he couldn't see the guards themselves so that he accurately target both of them in the area of effect ...

This is another key bit. You should have included this in your original post!

What you are really asking is: "How should a DM determine a caster's accuracy of placing a long distance spell effect?"

That's what all of your questions boil down to, and it has an entirely different answer! It's no longer about "spotting hidden foes"....as both you and your DM admit, the foes aren't hidden. It's about whether or not your caster can be accurate in his placement of spell effect at very long range.

The rules say: No problem. So long as the target is within range (check!), and the spell caster has a line of effect (check!), the caster can place the fireball from hundreds of feet away.

As a DM, I'd allow these rules to stand. Your DM (your wife!) has a problem with that.....and that's based on what she thinks of as a "very difficult task". My suggestion: treat the task as such, and have the PC roll a skill check to determine success.

Irony of ironies, I'd call for a Spot skill check, myself. Say DC 15. But a spellcraft check might be a viable alternative.