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Aquatic Tech Levels

I know I replied to this. Apparently the system ate it. I hope I can remember what I was saying.

Lava is hot enough but it is also surrounded by water that is boiling and full of toxins. Extremophiles live there but then they can't live elsewhere. Plus lava is sticky and is rapidly cooling. At most you would end up with a lumpy rock stick if you had a long enough stick.


Besides why go to the trouble to get metal when it isn't that useful underwater. I forked off this thread to ask about Biotech. I think that if we could figure out low tech path of biotech (not just domestication) then we could figure out what they would do underwater.
 

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Lava is hot enough but it is also surrounded by water that is boiling and full of toxins. Extremophiles live there but then they can't live elsewhere.

Aren't you being a little inconsistent about where you're willing to stretch reality for your game systems?

For terrestrial life, it is only "extremophiles" that live there, and the chemicals involved are toxic to us, sure. But it isn't humans who are doing it. You're talking about something smart enough to use and design new tools, that has extremities dextrous enough to make tools, and that lives in an aquatic environment - you're not talking about anything currently on Earth.

Plus lava is sticky and is rapidly cooling. At most you would end up with a lumpy rock stick if you had a long enough stick.

Lava doesn't actually cool that quickly - it can flow slowly along the ocean floor for miles before hardening. And there are hot spots in the ocean that last for centuries - building up communities of those extremophiles you mentioned above.

I'm sure when the first man thought to try to build a fire hot enough to melt stone, they laughed at him, and told him it couldn't be done. But, necessity is a mother, and all that. Just because you can't think of *how* it would be done, doesn't mean you can't say it is done, for purposes of a game.

I mean, really, I know your tech levels include, say, FTL travel, and darned tootin' you don't know how they'd accomplish that, but you're willing to say, "it happens".
 



I am assuming no magic and no land based sentient races to provide them with ideas. Without fire, smelting, or primitive chemistry how does a culture develop technologically?

Any ideas?

Any underwater civilization is going to be completely different from terrestrial civilizations. I don't think it'd go past the neolithic era.
 

I am working on aquatic tech levels for my game. I started with Neolithic Age but I can't figure out how they would progress to the Bronze Age.

They wouldn't. Aquatic tech is not fire based, so it takes a very long time for an Aquatic culture to discover things like smelting. They can conceivably get there eventually by learning to manage membranes and bubbles and so forth, but the upwards technology path is not as obvious.

Aquatic tech would have to be initially based on biochemistry, nanotechnology, and so forth. You start with selective breeding and domestication and move up. One thing you have to understand is that civilizations effect strongly how things in their vicinity evolve. The dog didn't get started with selective breeding. It got started with evolutionary pressure to adapt to a human dominated habitat. So its going to be difficult to imagine what the ecology of an ocean is like that is farmed, domesticated, and the food sources dominated by a technologically advanced civilization, but its probably going to be different. I would think that a dominate aquatic species would initially naturally evolve its symbiots. Of course, it might also evolve its pest species, so that would be a challenge.

Because you are in a liquid medium, the ultimate technology is always the container, and the best containers are the ones that are alive and fill themselves up.

On the whole, the challenges of developing technology in the ocean are such that I think it would be rather rare that a world first gets there with an aquatic species. Intelligence is just not as useful in the ocean as it is on land. We don't really have much evidence that anything in the ocean has ever gotten much smarter than a cat, and creatures like dolphins are dominate sea creatures pretty much completely without the need for digits much less technology.
 

[MENTION=4937]Celebrim[/MENTION] & MGibster I think you are right. I was hoping to create some detailed Aquatic tech levels but I can't think of a away to get them through the lower tech levels.

@Aeolin, Dannyalcatraz, and Umbran - WOW, I did not know that! That has me flabbergasted that you could touch the stuff with gloves!
 

[MENTION=4937]Celebrim[/MENTION] & MGibster I think you are right. I was hoping to create some detailed Aquatic tech levels but I can't think of a away to get them through the lower tech levels.

Yeah, it's not at all obvious how you go about it. The lack of fire probably isn't even the biggest problem. Equally big is how you go about separating something, or mixing it without contaminating/diluting it. Even without fire, humans use processes like dyeing, curing, and drying to alter the properties of natural materials - skins, plant fibers, etc. It's not clear how you go about doing that basic materials handling underwater. Forget bronze, how do you go about making raisins, beef jerky, salt, leather, baskets, pottery, thread, etc.? Once you have some basic materials science whether it comes out of the need for preserving food or providing shelter or whatever, then you can start building more and more elaborate things with the technology. But how do you do alter the normal chemistry of the thing when its bathed in a salt water bath filled with microbes the whole time. To me, getting actually well into the neolithic beyond perhaps simple stone smashing/scraping tools is actually the real challenge to my imagination.

One of the biggest challenges to imagining underwater technology, is given the problems of developing technology underwater, it seems like its easier and more likely to be successful to evolve a tool than create one. Hense you get amazing creatures like octopi and cuttlefish with an amazing variaty of adaptive abilities - color changing, shape changing, poisons, inks, jet propulsion, manipulative digits, biting mouths, etc. That's what tech 0 looks like in an aquatic species, but its not at all clear where it goes from there.

I imagine that some technologies that you have to create early on include:

1) Self-resealing containers.
2) Hypodermic needles.
3) Water proof linings.

I would imagine early aquatic technology is mucus based. The early technology hurdle to overcome is osmosis. You need to create membranes so that you can create a space with a different chemistry than the surrounding world. So you either need a base species that can create mucus with useful properties or else to domesticate some sort of mucus producing species. Spider silk is interesting, in that the Diving Bell Spider seems to be able to produce it underwater, so we have some sort of self-drying excretion that forms a strong water resistant substance. Early aquatic technology is probably similar in some ways to the diving bell spider's bubble based technology. Some sort of natural mastery of chemistry like that could form the basis of more sophisticated technologies.

So maybe you have a species that starts out weaving nets/membranes to protect itself from predators, and then starts weaving (non-sticky) nets or membranes that lets it contain some sort of edible/useful species until its dinner time while protecting it from predators. Eventually this leads to domestication. Perhaps the domesticated species is also a chemical producer, and its starts milking it for 'ink' or maybe the domesticated species is the original mucus producer and its entered into some sort of symbiotic partnership. In any event, eventually the species learns that it can contain chemicals in bubbles and that within these bubbles other materials undergo transformations. For example, maybe the start containing luminescent compounds in bubbles to make them portable, or maybe they figure out how to blend the precusor compounds in a bubble to create a temporary light - which lets them harvest food later into the evening. Anyway, its highly likely that the sort of things that they invent and the order in which they invent them would be nothing like land dwelling creatures. Almost all of it depends initially I think on leveraging existing biological materials.
 

The first and most obvious answer is you do chemical separations at the surface. Then would be to use centrifugal force.

However, the next most likely one is one they might use first- or at least, sooner than terrestrial cultures- is using semipermeable membranes. Why? Because flora and fauna already do that all the time, especially aquatic ones.
 

okay so we've got some possibilities here. Let's figure out the necessary steps to get to the genetic engineering level that biotech is dependent on.
They need to have some concept of DNA and the ability to observe it. The first part can occur earlier by far but what would they need to observe DNA?

I was thinking that some sort of aquanauts would allow aquatic animals to work in air or maybe use the membranes and bubbles to create small spaces with air like those isolation containers that they work on viruses in.

On the other hand I was just thinking about pheromones. From what I understand part of their purpose is to let you know if you are genetically compatible. Sharks have incredible senses. There are some dogs that can smell cancer. I wonder if an earlier breeding program could lead to a sense of smell so good that they could detect traits at the genetic level.

Maybe they use that to work out how DNA works earlier then we did. Once they get the isolation chambers set up to do the blood work and splicing it could start.

For computers I was thinking what if you altered a man of war to have a hive of brain cells instead. The number of them would directly reflect the computing power.

I was thinking that they could evolve/develop towards the aliens in The Abyss.

So it looks like at least one tech level would be defined by access to air. This could be like early space travel in a sense. I don't want them to just become amphibious and then follow our tech path. I want to see what we can do with them always aquatic.

I was just imagining coast labs with sections with the water pumped out or above the water line. The scientists could use an aerator and filter to get their oxygen levels right in their water basically like we do with aquariums. It could be set up like Abe from Hellboy.

I am assuming little or no metals on this planet to keep them on the biotech path.

So we would need a level where they create better and better containers like Celebrim was talking about. This would be before the air access level.

We've got this so far:

Corral Age - Just use things as they are
Net Age - Starting to create containers/early domestication
Bubble Age - Isolating materials/chemicals
Amphibious Age - Exploring coastlines with aerator packs
Coastal Age - creating cities along the coastal shelf, making use of land animals as well
Exploration Age - explore the interior of islands and continents.
Genetic Revolution - understanding of DNA, chemistry, biochemistry, physics, ecology, etc.
Surgical Age - able to do major surgery, more scientific developments, Modern Age equivalent
Uplift Age - able to greatly alter animals into various tools and weapons, includes their version of cyberware, cloning, etc.
Neogenesis Revolution - Able to create entirely new lifeforms, biovehicles, etc.

Thoughts?
 

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