Aragorn and spellcasting

[Steverooo]

There is no indication that the plant is associated with Numenor, per se.

"It is fortunate that I could find it, for it is a healing plant that the Men of the West brought to Middle-earth. Athelas they named it, and it grows now sparsely, and only in places where they dwelt or camped of old; and it is not known in the North, except to some of those who wander in the Wild. It has great virtues, but over such a wound as this, its healing powers may be small." FotR:233.

 

[billd91]

"and like it or not, a case can most certainly be made for Aragorn casting spells..." -- that doesn't mean it's a good or a convincing case. A case can also be made that the Moon landing never took place (and has been.) A case can also be made the the Holocaust is a giant fraud (and has been.) A case can be made that the earth is flat. Just because a case can be made doesn't mean people should line up to support it.

Now, hold on here. There's a huge difference between making a case for spell-casting rangers based on Aragorn and making a case that well-documented historical events that eyewitness still remember did not happen. I'm smelling the straw in that man.

 

[Desdichado]

Now, hold on here. There's a huge difference between making a case for spell-casting rangers based on Aragorn and making a case that well-documented historical events that eyewitness still remember did not happen. I'm smelling the straw in that man.

Not really. My only point is that unconvincing and unsatisfying cases are not hard to construct.

 

[billd91]

Not really. My only point is that unconvincing and unsatisfying cases are not hard to construct.

To you, maybe the arguments are unconvincing. The difference between your examples and deconstructing Aragorn is that one is the interpretation of art and the other is the establishment of fact.
The interpreation of art, like all literary criticism is based on your ability to BS to the point that enough people will agree with you to make the time-investment worthwhile. Obviously, both sides in the debate about whether Aragorn is well-modeled by spell-casting rangers have succeeded at that level.

 

[Squire James]

"Magic" essentially means "stuff that guy over there does that I can't rationally explain". Some of the things Aragorn did were certainly "magical" from the point of view of the common Gondorian (and I imagine they'd understand more than most Men). To an Elf, what Aragorn did was probably as common as dirt, and they understood the world so well that the word "magic" itself was not used by them. Perhaps a D&D Wizard would rather make a long-winded explanation of the laws of the universe that allow them to achieve supernatural effects, but most have long ago sighed and started calling it "magic" along with everyone else. Gandalf certainly never explained how/why he could do what he could do... I imagine all that stuff wasn't really "magic" to him (though even Aragorn would consider it such).

Certainly one could apply Muggle principles to Aragorn's actions and find them non-magical. Personally, I choose not to do that.

 

[Steverooo]

What IS he doing?

For those of you wishing for spell-less Rangers, agian I say: Use the Barbarian. Be done with it!

In the LotR series, Aragorn isn't given to doing dumb things, wasting words, wasting time. Such actions are inconsistent with his character.

I have asked this question before, and NEVER gotten a good answer to it... To those who don't want to accept spellcasting Rangers, based upon Aragorn, I will again ask it: What the heck is Aragorn doing, while Frodo is busy dying from the wounds of the Morgul-blade? Are you really trying to tell me that Aragorn, the healer, stops to sing a song, instead of tending to him?

"He sat down on the ground, and taking the dagger-hilt laid it on his knees, and he sang over it a slow song in a strange tongue. Then setting it aside, he turned to Frodo and in a soft tone spoke words the others could not catch. From the pouch at his belt he drew out the long leaves of a plant." FotR:233.

Note well that "NOT casting a spell!" is not an answer. What IS Aragorn doing, in this scene? (Not "What is he NOT doing?")

 

[Steverooo]

Middle Earth: Knowledge really IS power!

Re the post on "Magic", above... In ME, Knowledge = Power.

The Valar, and lesser Maia, know the most, and have the most power, because they were present during the singing of the Ainulindale, the music which created the world. The Elves, the "Eldest Children of Illuvatar" come next. The Numenoreans come next, due to their connections to the Maiar & Elves, and a few of them (Aragorn, Denethor, Ecthelion) are about on par with Elves of an equal age.

The above poster is correct in the Elves' views on "magic". The Elf asked about the cloaks doesn't seem to know the answer, and even Galadriel seems confused by likening her Mirror to "the deceits of the enemy".

 

[Desdichado]

For those of you wishing for spell-less Rangers, agian I say: Use the Barbarian. Be done with it!

And agian [sic] I say that's a non sequitar and a bad suggestion to boot since the barbarian is not truly set up to be a woodlands hunter/guerilla type class.

In the LotR series, Aragorn isn't given to doing dumb things, wasting words, wasting time. Such actions are inconsistent with his character.

Depends on what you mean by "dumb things" but he does turn a bit talkative plenty of times when more economy of speech would seem to be called for. He also stops to sing this long song for Boromir's boat before running off to catch up with Pippin and Merry even though his chance of actually doing so is slim to begin with. That could certainly be classified as "wasting words and wasting time."

I have asked this question before, and NEVER gotten a good answer to it... To those who don't want to accept spellcasting Rangers, based upon Aragorn, I will again ask it: What the heck is Aragorn doing, while Frodo is busy dying from the wounds of the Morgul-blade? Are you really trying to tell me that Aragorn, the healer, stops to sing a song, instead of tending to him?

Yes, exactly. It was ritual, there is calming power in the words of Elvish, as well as their nature to withstand and even banish somewhat the power of the enemy. This is totatlly consistent with Tolkiens own professional theories on the nature of linguistic aesthetics. Frodo himself, and even Sam, uses the same or similar techniques (calling out "Elbereth" to the Witch-king, saying Elvish phrases while fighting Shelob, the Silent Watchers at Cirith Ungol, etc.) Surely you're not suggesting that Frodo and Sam were casting spells in the novels? Besides, it's no secret that Tolkien believed in the power of music; not as a magical, spell-like effect, but as a powerful force nonetheless. If you insist that Aragorn is casting a spell here, you pretty much have to accept that Sam is casting spells in Cirith Ungol and that Merry is casting a spell in "The Scouring of the Shire" when he blows the Horn of Rohan.

 

[Barak]

Merry is casting a spell in "The Scouring of the Shire" when he blows the Horn of Rohan.

I'm far from a Tolkien expert, but even I can answer that one. No. He's using a magical item?

 

[Desdichado]

I'm far from a Tolkien expert, but even I can answer that one. No. He's using a magical item?

The problem is, largely, that magic as portrayed in Lord of the Rings and as it's portrayed in D&D are so disimilar that these types of comparisons are fraught with all kinds of strange inconsistencies. They really just don't work well, IMO. So, my general reaction is to reject interpretations that are more than "ambient magic" for most strange occurances. Obviously, some exceptions, such as Gandalf and his obvious spells, or some of the stuff Galadriel does, etc. are more than "ambient magic" but that's about it.