Aragorn and spellcasting

[Steverooo]

Same with whatever it is he does with Bill the pony when he sends him home from the gate of Moria.

Actually, it was Gandalf who did the latter, not Aragorn... Perhaps you are thinking of the scene before the dark door in Harrowdale, just before they enter the Paths of the Dead?

 

[Dr Simon]

Actually, it was Gandalf who did the latter, not Aragorn... Perhaps you are thinking of the scene before the dark door in Harrowdale, just before they enter the Paths of the Dead?

Possibly confusing book and film....

 

[fusangite]

A few points to consider:

1. Gandalf is a Maia; in other words, he is a lesser God existing in a human form through hypostasis. To argue that human beings can cast D&D-style spells in Middle Earth because lesser deities/angels can is simply not on. Saruman, Radagast, Gandalf, the two Blue Wizards, Bombadil and a handful of others in the world are all or part-Maia. Their magical properties, I would argue, come principally from the fact that they are immortal divinities.

2. "The hands of a king are the hands of a healer" -- Aragorn can heal people with Athelas aka. "kingsfoil" because he is the one true king. Tolkien is using a standard medieval trope here. True kings, in medieval times, were considered to have the capacity to cure scrofula. This ability is distinguishable from D&D spells in a number of ways: (a) there is no maximum number of times it can be cast; (b) it is not a learned skill; (c) it inheres in his identity as the rightful king not in any other aspect of him. The fact that he happens to be good as finding kingsfoil because he is a ranger is not what makes him able to heal with it.

As I said before, I am not arguing that magic is not going on. But this magic is not well-represented through D&D-style spells. Most magic is tied either to a person's genealogical proximity to the gods or to items fashioned by the gods themselves.

 

[Desdichado]

It is said in the Appendix to Lord of the Rings that Gandalf had been forbidden from "Matching power with power." If this was not the case, it would have been well within his power to march up to the black gates and single-handedly defeat Saron, as they were originally of roughly equal power, but Saron was weakend by the lack of the Ring.

Actually, that's not quite true. They were not of roughly equal power, and Sauron had more native power than just about any of the other Maia. Maia came in all sorts of power grades, and it's apparent that Gandalf was roughly equivalent to the Balrog. Tolkien claimed that the Balrogs were much lesser in power than Sauron.

Although it is correct that the methodology was specifically forbidden to the Istari; they were not to go around trying to match Sauron with force of arms or magic or whatever.

 

[Desdichado]

"The hands of a king are the hands of a healer" -- Aragorn can heal people with Athelas aka. "kingsfoil" because he is the one true king. Tolkien is using a standard medieval trope here. True kings, in medieval times, were considered to have the capacity to cure scrofula. This ability is distinguishable from D&D spells in a number of ways: (a) there is no maximum number of times it can be cast; (b) it is not a learned skill; (c) it inheres in his identity as the rightful king not in any other aspect of him. The fact that he happens to be good as finding kingsfoil because he is a ranger is not what makes him able to heal with it.

My interpretation of that has to do with Aragorn's lore and knowledge. He knows of athelas and it's properties while other man do not. He doesn't cure them because of any inherent power or ability or even "coincidental magic/divine Providence" based on his being the true king.

Although Tolkien very much did believe, or at least utilized in Middle-earth, the concept of coincidental magic/divine Providence. Many of Aragorn's "magic powers" that some have interpreted as spellcasting ability are better interpreted (IMO, of course) as Divine Providence essentially, instead. The recent Decipher LotR game, as disappointing as it was in some respects, got this aspect of the setting spot on.

 

[fusangite]

My interpretation of that has to do with Aragorn's lore and knowledge. He knows of athelas and it's properties while other man do not. He doesn't cure them because of any inherent power or ability or even "coincidental magic/divine Providence" based on his being the true king.

Then what do you make of the Ioreth scene in the Houses of Healing in Minas Tirith? This is a pretty clear articulation of the fact that (a) when other people use kingsfoil it is only an aromatic herb and (b) that the capacity to heal with it is bound up with him being the true king. While I agree that the scene in Fellowship on its own could be read in the way you suggest, I think this breaks down once you include the Return of the King scene. Furthermore, why wouldn't we naturally prefer an interpretation that is consistent with other aspects of Tolkien's stated worldview such as the fact that he really did see Aragorn as an analogue of Charlemagne?

Many of Aragorn's "magic powers" that some have interpreted as spellcasting ability are better interpreted (IMO, of course) as Divine Providence essentially, instead.

What other apparent magic powers?

 

[Desdichado]

Then what do you make of the Ioreth scene in the Houses of Healing in Minas Tirith?

The fact that there were prophecies saying that the hands of the king would be the hands of the healer does not in any way indicate that Aragorn was some kind of magical healer. The reason nobody else could heal them was because nobody else was familiar with the Black Breath except Aragorn, and he was also the only one who recognized the value of that herb for that particular ailment. Also, Aragorn was clearly an accomplished "field medic" type of guy. The fact that he also happened to be fulfilling prophecy that identified him as the true king also doesn't indicate or even suggest magical power of any kind; Tolkien used that kind of coincidence/Divine Providence all the time. But it's not magical.

Another of Tolkien's conceits, if you will, was that being a true king, good ruler, or even just wise was bound up with understanding and valuing ancient lore. Hence the superiority of Faramir to Boromir when it came right down to it. Of course, Aragorn would have a knowledge of the esoteric and unique properties of kingsfoil when other men would not; because as the true king, he was a living repository of wisdom. This particular wisdom; the use of a plant associated with the Numenoreans so intimately as this was, was a key aspect of that.

This is a pretty clear articulation of the fact that (a) when other people use kingsfoil it is only an aromatic herb and (b) that the capacity to heal with it is bound up with him being the true king.

I completely disagree with both points, as stated above. In fact, I'm somewhat shocked that you can say that either of those points are "clear" from the text. I'd like to know why you think so.

Furthermore, why wouldn't we naturally prefer an interpretation that is consistent with other aspects of Tolkien's stated worldview such as the fact that he really did see Aragorn as an analogue of Charlemagne?

He's also said he's an analogue of King Arthur, and that case can, in fact, be made more easily. He also said that he disliked allegory and clear mapping of analogues such as this. I don't think you can successfully press that analogy as far as you are trying to.

What other apparent magic powers?

I don't believe he had any. If that list asked for at the beginning of the thread pops up, you'll see what I mean, though -- there are other instances in which folks have interpreted something Aragorn does as "magical" such as speaking with Bill before going into the mines, etc. I've never paid too much attention to the listing of them because I reject that interpretation of the books.

 

[fusangite]

The fact that there were prophecies saying that the hands of the king would be the hands of the healer does not in any way indicate that Aragorn was some kind of magical healer.

So, why is the prophecy about his hands, then? Why not his knowledge?

The reason nobody else could heal them was because nobody else was familiar with the Black Breath except Aragorn, and he was also the only one who recognized the value of that herb for that particular ailment.

And none of this could be communicated to a person actually authorized the enter Minas Tirith? Also, wasn't Gandalf actually more familiar with this magic? How about the Sons of Elrond?

Tolkien used that kind of coincidence/Divine Providence all the time. But it's not magical.

This seems problematic as its only function is to treat wounds magically inflicted by the Nazgul.

Another of Tolkien's conceits, if you will, was that being a true king, good ruler, or even just wise was bound up with understanding and valuing ancient lore.

Yes. But when else in the books does knowledge, by itself, allow Aragorn to perform a physical action of which others are incapable?

the use of a plant associated with the Numenoreans

There is no indication that the plant is associated with Numenor, per se. There is simply a pretty unequivocal association of the plant with kingship.

I completely disagree with both points, as stated above. In fact, I'm somewhat shocked that you can say that either of those points are "clear" from the text. I'd like to know why you think so.

Textually, then, why is it so important for Tolkien to let us know that Athelas is also called Kingsfoil? When one combines the name of the plant with Aragorn's identity, things look clearer.And why is it that those who know Gondor's ancient healing lore do not believe it has any healing properties? Furthermore, why is it that the successful use of the Athelas is, by itself, sufficient for Ioreth to conclude that Aragorn is the king? Furthermore, you'll recall that there is a big deal about Aragorn entering the city before the right time; he has to be smuggled in, incognito. Why does he specifically have to do the healing? We know that the procedure he uses with the plant is very physically simple. If he could just tell someone else how to use the plant, he would have done so. Then he would not have had to enter the city under cover. It's a big deal that Aragorn is engaging in subterfuge here; and when he gets in, he doesn't do anything fancy or difficult -- he just crushes up the leaves. For goodness sake, Pippin could do that. But, as the text clearly indicates, only Aragorn can perform his particular feat of healing, which entails healing wounds inflicted by sorcery.

He's also said he's an analogue of King Arthur,

...who would also have shared the properties of a medieval king.

 

[Desdichado]

So, why is the prophecy about his hands, then? Why not his knowledge?

Because he actually carried out the procedures. You answered your own question later on in the thread when you asked why he couldn't just tell Pippin what to do. Because he wouldn't be fulfilling prophecy if he did.

But when else in the books does knowledge, by itself, allow Aragorn to perform a physical action of which others are incapable?

This is similar to when he uses the palantir successfully, which even Gandalf wouldn't do. It was his right; he was the heir, so he could do it. He certainly didn't have more power than Gandalf, but he had the right and the mantle of kingship, so he did it. Could someone else have done it? Don't know. Clearly Denethor used the palantir repeatedly.

Anyway, I think the value and use of knowledge as a marker of nobility is clearly established in Tolkien. I already mentioned Faramir vs. Boromir. I could troll the books for numerous other quotes by Gandalf, Galadriel, Elrond and others that support this view.

There is no indication that the plant is associated with Numenor, per se. There is simply a pretty unequivocal association of the plant with kingship.

Oh, but there is. When Aragorn goes looking for it after the attack on Weathertop he told Sam that it was brought by the Numenoreans and still only grew in areas where they had lived or camped. In fact, there is no clear connection of athelas with the king per se other than it's common name of kingsfoil. That combined with Tolkien's own beliefs in the sanctity of kingship, and his penchant for identifying the king as a living personification of the nation he leads, doesn't lead me to believe that kingsfoil is to be interpreted as something only the kings could use. In fact, IIRC, Elrond and Glorfindel both referred to its use in regards to Frodo as well, and clearly neither of them were kings.

Now, if you want a plant that's clearly associated with the king, you could talk about the white tree. But that's different.

And why is it that those who know Gondor's ancient healing lore do not believe it has any healing properties?

Tolkien said many times that the lore and wisdom of Gondor had waned over the years.

Furthermore, why is it that the successful use of the Athelas is, by itself, sufficient for Ioreth to conclude that Aragorn is the king?

It has nothing whatsoever to do with Aragorn's use of athelas and everything to do with his fulfilling of prophecy.

Furthermore, you'll recall that there is a big deal about Aragorn entering the city before the right time; he has to be smuggled in, incognito. Why does he specifically have to do the healing? We know that the procedure he uses with the plant is very physically simple. If he could just tell someone else how to use the plant, he would have done so.

No, he wouldn't have. For one thing, he had to diagnose the problem first, and then if you recall, he had to go on a massive search for athelas. The Gondorians didn't even keep any, not valuing the plant at all.

As to your reductive reasoning, you're still discounting the fact that if Aragorn hadn't done the healing himself, then he wouldn't have been fulfilling prophecy. Aragorn fulfilled all kinds of prophecies; this one was simply a more public fulfillment that served to signal to all the Gondorians that he was the true king.

But, as the text clearly indicates, only Aragorn can perform his particular feat of healing, which entails healing wounds inflicted by sorcery....who would also have shared the properties of a medieval king.

If your going to continue to insist that the text clearly indicates this, I'd like to see the quote. In my opinion, no such clear indication is made, and a more likely interpretation of it was that Aragorn was destined to fulfill prophecy, not use some kind of magical king-power.

 

[billd91]

<snip>

As to your reductive reasoning, you're still discounting the fact that if Aragorn hadn't done the healing himself, then he wouldn't have been fulfilling prophecy. Aragorn fulfilled all kinds of prophecies; this one was simply a more public fulfillment that served to signal to all the Gondorians that he was the true king.

If your going to continue to insist that the text clearly indicates this, I'd like to see the quote. In my opinion, no such clear indication is made, and a more likely interpretation of it was that Aragorn was destined to fulfill prophecy, not use some kind of magical king-power.

While I disagree with Joshua by believing that Aragorn could be interpreted as a spell-user at a number of points, especially when translating the ideas into game design (which is art as much as science), I do agree with him about the use of athelas being mostly a matter of proper knowledge (whether magical or not) and not limited only to Aragorn. The Gondorians do know a little about the herb, if I remember correctly, but mostly in 'old wives tales' and not 'proper' medical knowledge. That would be why Aragorn calls for people of more wisdom and less knowledge, implying that people should know better.
The way I take the "hands of a healer" prophecy is that the true king won't be merely a man of war but also of gentle knowledge. A kind man as well as a warrior. A man with such empathy, skill, and concern that he can heal people and do it well, not just rule them. And that's just the sort of guy Aragorn is. Of course, having been reared among Elrond's people at Rivendell certainly couldn't hurt his ability to pick up healing lore. Elrond does have healing power beyond the abilities of Aragorn, certainly out in the wild.