Arcane Riposte is Useless (Forked: The tragedy of 4th edition.)

[aurance]

Can you direct to where it states that a wizard making a basic melee attack (opportunity) is going to be dealing 2[W]?

p.287 PHB

 

[Cadfan]

(Now, IMHO Wand Wizards would be inferior even if they used a non-overlapping secondary ability score like Charisma, but that's neither here nor there.)

I have to disagree with that. Initiative and accuracy never hurt anyone. Plus dexterity has so many useful associated skills.

He's got a total of +9 to attack (5 level +4 Dexterity), which means he has to roll a 14 to hit the lowest AC Minion of his level. Note that Minions have an AC below that of Soldiers.

Other than the pedantic point that "minion" does not mean "has low AC" (and soldier DOES mean "has high ac"), the only thing I'd add is that the character in question is a wizard. His attack of opportunity was going to hit on about that number either way, the difference is that now it does more damage and doesn't require a weapon.

 

[Nifft]

Other than the pedantic point that "minion" does not mean "has low AC" (and soldier DOES mean "has high ac"), the only thing I'd add is that the character in question is a wizard. His attack of opportunity was going to hit on about that number either way, the difference is that now it does more damage and doesn't require a weapon.

According to this, Minion does mean "has low AC".

However, a better phrasing of that point may be: even if the Wizard can hit a Minion's AC, he's going to be even worse off against a Soldier.

If the point of your last few sentences here is "it's supposed to be mostly useless", then we seem to agree that it's mostly useless, yes?

Cheers, -- N

PS: Regarding the use of Dexterity outside of Wand specialization, I do agree. But IMHO it's a poor Wizard who sacrifices +4 to his Will or Fortitude defense for +4 to Stealth, Acrobatics & Thievery. He could blow some feats to get comparable skill bonuses; he can't do the same for his defenses.

 

[Victim]

I agree that it's pretty much worthless. Even with a high Dex, going against AC without any proficiency and weapon/implement bonuses is harsh, on an ability that's extremely situational in the first place. Honestly, the power could autohit and it still wouldn't make much difference for single classed wizards.

Battlemage in general seems weak. Battle Edge sucks too - it uses up your immediate action. Forceful Retort doesn't seem as good as the encounter's on Spellstorm or Blood Mage even with Arcane Reach. And without Arcane Reach... Arcane Rejuvenation seems okay, about on par with the other abilities. Closing Spell is nasty with its high potentional damage, variable element, and big area (even bigger with Resounding Thunder!), but both the Blood and Spellstorm Mages also have sweet 20 Dailies. Sure, Closing Spell can hit for 8d10, but Destructive Salutation packs ongoing damage and a stun and even stuns on a miss.

On the whole, it seems like the Blood Mage does more damage than the battlemage (ongoing damage, level 16 trick, blood pulse trick, bolstering blood) AND has superior control options. Maybe it's just the loser of the 3 big wizard paths (since Spiral's melee focus makes it sort of niche) next to the amazing Blood mage and good Spellstorm. But it does seem notably weak IMO, especially wizards normally aren't that great on pure damage stuff IMO. You'd think the path for making things explode would be one of the better ones to compensate.

 

[Chocobo]

But what else was the wizard going to be doing with that off-hand if he didn't have a dagger in it? He can't use a shield because his strength is too low for that. He can't use a second implement (effectively) because you're pumping all his stat increases into dexterity.

First of all, a +2 magic weapon with no special abilities is a trivial expense at level 11. You can probably get it as a cast off from another party member for 1/3 price, and you'll both come out ahead. Even if by some strange twist of fate you have to pay full price, you still won't break the bank on that. So let's go with the more realistic assumption that if you care one iota about your opportunity attack, you've got a +2 weapon by level 11 and a +4 weapon by level 21.

If, on the other hand, you don't care about your opportunity attack, then the ability is completely worthless and we can stop right here.

So lets say you're a wand mage starting with str 10, dex 14, Int 18.
At level 11 the dagger does +10 attack, 1d4+2 damage
At level 11 the hand does +8 attack, 1d8+5 damage

That isn't too bad. Trading attack for damage isn't good, but you do get roughly twice as much damage.

But what happens at epic levels?
At level 21 the dagger does +18 attack, 2d4+5 damage
At level 21 the hand does +15 attack, 1d8+7 damage

I think we can say that's just terrible.


But Eladrin are better, right? Because of that Dexterity bonus, right? Wrong. Eladrin also use longswords:

At level 11 the longsword does +10 attack, 1d8+2 damage
At level 11 the hand does +9 attack, 1d8+5 damage
At level 21 the longsword does +18 attack, 2d8+5 damage
At level 21 the hand does +16 attack, 1d8+7 damage

Terrible. And that's assuming the Eladrin can't spare a feat to improve his sword damage... There's no way to improve your hand damage because it's not a power.


Not to mention the fact that the concept of a Wizard who mixes it up in the thick of battle is at odds with the Wand mage who is the worst of the 3 implements defensively speaking. In comparison to, you know, a staff wizard who gets extra hp and surges, defensive bonuses, and a level appropriate enhancement bonus on his melee weapon - a wand wizard would have to be retarded to want to mix it up in melee.

 

[The Little Raven]

p.287 PHB

Thanks, chief.

 

[Baumi]

It really sucks as an opportunity Attack, but it rocks as an free at-will power!

You can burn things, intimitade/torture thugs, open locks with your hand (just hold it long enough against it), touch insubstatial things (force!), make some shock traps with water and lightning, etc...

While prestidigitation could mimik several of this thing, Arcane Riposte makes real damage so it is much more extreme and makes new things possible. 8D

 

[evileeyore]

How do the numbers work out if you change Arcane Riposte to be based off of Int and give it the implement keyword? It's such a niche power anyway, doesn't seem it'd hurt it to buff it.

I'm still struggling to grok all the rules... so bear with me:

What would adding the Implement Keyword do?

I can guess you'd be able to get your Implement Enhancement bonus, but would you also be able to attack with teh Implement?



I'm rolling up an Orb using no Dex Wizard, so inquiring minds and all...

 

[Chocobo]

Here's what I think Arcane Riposte should have said if the person who wrote it were really thinking it through...

either
A:

Arcane Riposte (11th level): Imbued with magical might, your hands bristle with arcane energy in the heat of battle. When a creature provokes an opportunity attack from you, you can use Arcane Riposte instead. Choose cold, fire, force, or lightning. You deal 1d8 + Intelligence modifier damage of that type with this attack.

or
B:

Arcane Riposte (11th level): You can use Arcane Riposte as an At-Will power:

Arcane Riposte
Imbued with magical might, your hands bristle with arcane energy in the heat of battle.
At-Will * Cold, Fire, Force, or Lightning; Implement
Standard Action Melee
Attack: Intelligence vs. Reflex
Hit: 1d8 + Intelligence modifier cold, fire, force or lightning damage.
Increase damage to 2d8 + Intelligence modifier at 21st level.
Special: This power counts as a melee basic attack. When a power or opportunity attack allows you to make a melee basic attack, you can use this power.

 

[Derulbaskul]

Yeah. I emailed CustServ about it. (snip)

Thanks for posting that. I needed a good laugh!