Arcane Thesis

[mikebr99]

Hi all,
A feat from phbII... "when you apply a metamagic feat to that spell, the enhanced spell uses up a slot one level lower than normal."

So, if you put multiple meta-feats on your thesis spell... is the total reduced by one, or is every meta feat addition reduced by one?

Mike

 

[Cheiromancer]

Strictly speaking, the check applies every time the condition is met; so if you've added seven metamagic feats to the spell, the arcane thesis is triggered seven times.

The catch is what is meant by "one slot lower than normal". I read "normal" as "what level spell slot it would occupy if it were not for this feat." So even if the arcane thesis were triggered seven times the -1 spell level wouldn't stack.

That's my reading of it anyway. The net result is that the total is reduced by one.

 

[werk]

"when you apply a metamagic feat to that spell, the enhanced spell uses up a slot one level lower than normal."

Mr. Conservative here. I think that the feat applies to the spell rather than metamagic feats, so when it says 'that spell' uses up one slot lower, that's what it means. All those metas are only on one enhanced spell, so arcane thesis only gets counted once.

 

[RangerWickett]

Hmm. I see potential for a replacement character should I die in the 8th level game I'm in. We're using flaws from Unearthed Arcana.

Human Wizard (evoker) 7/Fighter 1, two flaws. Prohibited schools would be necromancy and enchantment. Feats would be Arcane Thesis (magic missile), Empower Spell, Maximize Spell, Quicken Spell, Scribe Scroll, Silent Spell, Spell Mastery (magic missile and others), Still Spell. I would wear heavy armor and use a tower shield.

Arcane Thesis -- I don't recall the prerequisites, but you choose a spell, and your caster level with that spell increases by +2. Whenever you apply a metamagic feat (other than Heighten Spell) to that spell, it reduces the spell level by 1.

Now since according to a reply from WotC, with Arcane Thesis you reduce the spell level by 1 for every metamagic feat (not just the first one), my daily spell list would look something like this:

1st - Still silent magic missile x6
2nd - Still silent empowered magic missile x5
3rd - Still silent maximized magic missile x4
4th - Still silent quickened magic missile x3

 

[RigaMortus2]

You forgot to add a metamagic feat that doesn't change the spell (slot) level, such as Cooperative Spell or Energy Substitution. That way you can also cast 0th level Magic Missiles.

 

[Matafuego]

And you'd be completely sad once the first guy with SHIELD faces you

 

[RangerWickett]

And you'd be completely sad once the first guy with SHIELD faces you

Okay, I'll have a wand of dispel magic.

 

[Cheiromancer]

Ranger Wickett is correct:

Customer (BIll Bisco) 05/13/2006 11:49 AM
I'm curious about one of the New Feats from Player's Handbook II. Arcane Thesis says that you choose a spell and whenever you apply a metamagic feat to the spell, the enhanced spell uses one level lower than normal. The feat doesn't list what happens when you apply more than one metamagic feat to the spell in question. Does it lower the increased spell level per metamagic feat or does it just lower the total spell level by 1 regardless of the metamagic feats applied?

Response (Chris L.) 05/15/2006 08:08 AM
Thank you for contacting us.
For every metamagic feat you add to that spell, you would reduce the slot bump by one. So if you were to prepare an empowered maximized magic missile (assuming magic missile is the spell you choose for your Arcane Thesis), it would be prepared as a 4th level spell (+1 level for empowered, down from +2; and +2 levels for maximized, down from +3)

I hope this information is useful.
Good Gaming!

As a little bit of extra commentary, consider this snippet:

I'm the original designer of the Arcane Thesis feat. I say original designer because the version that appears in the PHB II is different from the feat I designed. This is a normal consequence of Wizards' development process, and every book, without exception, benefits from their development. I point this out only to act as a caveat to what I'm about to say. Which is this: I shouldn't be taken as the final arbiter on this feat; I was only a small piece in the process of bringing the PHB II to you.

For what it's worth, then, I would rule as Majoru Oakheart does (see his posting just previous to mine). Each metmagic feat applied to a thesis spell adds 1 level less than normal, with a minimum of 0 levels added. Thus, if you apply one metamagic feat with an adjustment of +2 levels to your thesis fireball spell, then you end up with a 4th level spell. If you apply two metamagic feats with adjustments of +2 and +3 levels to your thesis fireball spell, then you end up with a 6th level spell. If you apply four metamagic feats with adjustments of +0, +0, +1, and +3 to your thesis fireball spell, then you end up with a fifth level spell.

Personally I think everyone who takes the feat should also record the name of his thesis: Fireball and the Kobolds of the Caves of Chaos: Forty-Four Case Studies; Melf and His Arrow; How Magic Is Your Jar?. Bonus points if you write out the first paragraph on edge-burnt parchment and insist on thrusting it into the hands of players at the table saying, "Read my thesis, read my thesis."

It's from Feats - Arcane Thesis Abuse (PHB II)

I think that if this is how they wanted it to work they should have worded it differently. Instead of "when you apply a metamagic feat to that spell, the enhanced spell uses up a slot one level lower than normal" they should have said "each time you apply a metamagic feat to that spell the increase in spell slot is one less than normal." Then it is clear that "normal" refers to the slot changing effect of that particular feat, not all of them together.

 

[RangerWickett]

Ooh, better idea: (28-pt buy)

Naloric Fivenimblefingers, D.M. (doctor of magic)
Gnome metamagic sorcerer 8 (from PHB2)

Str 8
Dex 12
Con 16
Int 14
Wis 8
Cha 18
HP 49

Flaws - Noncombatant (-2 to melee attacks) and Shaky (-2 to ranged attacks).

Feats: Arcane Thesis (magic missile), Empower Spell, Quicken Spell, Silent Spell, Still Spell.

Skills - Concentration +14, Knowledge (arcana) +13, Ride +6, Spellcraft +13. Of course, I have a -6 armor check penalty (which even affects Ride, since I don't have any armor proficiencies), so Ride is actually at +0. Hence the magic item (ring of riding).

Equipment - (should be 27,000 total) +2 Full plate (5650), +2 heavy wooden shield (4157), ring of riding +5 (2500), ring of deflection +1 (2000), amulet of natural armor +1 (2000), ioun stone of +1 insight to AC (5000), cloak of resistance +1 (1000), warpony, barding, incidentals.

Weight carried is about 30 lbs. This is a medium load, but I've already got worse penalties from my worn armor, so it doesn't actually affect me.

AC: 29 (+10 armor, +4 shield, +1 deflection, +1 natural, +1 insight, +1 size, +1 Dex). Not bad for a mage.

Fort +6, Ref +4, Will +6

Spells Known (spells per day):

0th - (6) who cares
1st - (7) endure elements, featherfall, magic missile, protection from evil, unseen servant
2nd - (7) glitterdust, resist energy, see invisibility
3rd - (5) dispel magic, suggestion
4th - (4) dimension door


Naloric wrote the book (or rather, thesis) on magic missiles.

I realized that mathematically, the average damage for magic missile is 17.5. When empowered, that goes up to 26.25. When maximized, it only goes up to 25, so maximize spell is useless to me.

 

[Hypersmurf]

I realized that mathematically, the average damage for magic missile is 17.5. When empowered, that goes up to 26.25. When maximized, it only goes up to 25, so maximize spell is useless to me.

Why? You've got a 4th level slot for an Empowered Maximized Magic Missile, averaging 34.25...

-Hyp.