D&D 5E Arcane Trickster questions

[Clancey]

1: Is everything handled by MH Legedemain when invisible, invisible too? IE when I pick a pocket with the invisible hand is it invisible too? How about something in the invisible hand that you intend to stow upon another's person is it invisible until the hand lets go of it?


2: The wording on the spells learned at 3rd level seems to be saying that 1 non illusion/enchantment spell can be learned, but when talking about spells at higher levels where it says you can switch out non illusion/enchantment spells learned at 8th, 14th and 20th levels it does not include the 3rd level spell. So, is it that you cannot learn a spell from other schools until 8th level, or can you just not replace the 3rd level spell for some reason?

 

[Wik]

1. I'd rule that the object DOESN'T become invisible. It's like those old, bad special effects you'd see in saturday morning shows. The coin magically floats in the air, pulled along by a piece of fishing twine.

2. You can learn a spell from other schools at 3rd, 8th, etc. I think this suffers from a bit of spotty writing - one of the weaknesses (and strengths!) of 5e. My ruling on it is that if you swap out a non illusion/enchantment spell for another one, it has to be of the same level, and go from there. It's probably not exactly as written, but it works.

And honestly, a bit part of me wants to just drop the schools bit entirely, and give the player free reign. How much more fun would that be!?

 

[Psikerlord#]

1. I'd rule that the object DOESN'T become invisible. It's like those old, bad special effects you'd see in saturday morning shows. The coin magically floats in the air, pulled along by a piece of fishing twine.

2. You can learn a spell from other schools at 3rd, 8th, etc. I think this suffers from a bit of spotty writing - one of the weaknesses (and strengths!) of 5e. My ruling on it is that if you swap out a non illusion/enchantment spell for another one, it has to be of the same level, and go from there. It's probably not exactly as written, but it works.

And honestly, a bit part of me wants to just drop the schools bit entirely, and give the player free reign. How much more fun would that be!?

I think you could certainly allow the player to choose any 2 schools, rather than being set to illusion & enchantment. Same for eldritch knight. Or make a feat that allows the PC to choose spells from a 3rd or 4th school, etc.

 

[Minigiant]

1: Is everything handled by MH Legedemain when invisible, invisible too? IE when I pick a pocket with the invisible hand is it invisible too? How about something in the invisible hand that you intend to stow upon another's person is it invisible until the hand lets go of it?


2: The wording on the spells learned at 3rd level seems to be saying that 1 non illusion/enchantment spell can be learned, but when talking about spells at higher levels where it says you can switch out non illusion/enchantment spells learned at 8th, 14th and 20th levels it does not include the 3rd level spell. So, is it that you cannot learn a spell from other schools until 8th level, or can you just not replace the 3rd level spell for some reason?

1) Just the hand is invisible.

1) You can swap out any one of your spells for another wizard spell. You however can only swap non illusion/enchantment spells for those of your 8th, 14th, and 20th slots.

Basically, Every spell an arcane trickster knows is tagged to the the level they learned it. Only the 8th, 14th, and 20th level ones are WILD and can be from any school.


For example at level 3 arcane trickster can know charm person, color spray, and disguise self.
At level 4, he or she learns silent image and can swap color spray for illusionary script since illusionary script is an illusion spell.
At level 8, he or she learns chromatic orb and swaps color spray back in for illusionary script.

 

[fuindordm]

The way I read it, at third level you get 2 spells that must be enchantment/illusion, and 1 spell that can be any school.
At 8th, 14th, and 20th level you are learning your second spell that can be 2nd, 3rd, or 4th level respectively, and these also can be from any school.
So by 20th level, 4 of your spells known are unrestricted, and the rest must be enchantment/illusion.

 

[Bupp]

I think you could certainly allow the player to choose any 2 schools, rather than being set to illusion & enchantment. Same for eldritch knight. Or make a feat that allows the PC to choose spells from a 3rd or 4th school, etc.

I don't give them free access to any school, but they choose 2 schools, one of which must be either illusion or enchantment. Eldritch Knights choose 2 schools, one of which must be abjuration or evocation.

 

[Clancey]

Thanks for everyone's input, but I don't see a consensus to date - it looks pretty solid in the area of invisible magehand legerdemain and items carried , but the starting spells for AT seems fairly evenly split between 1 non Illusion/Enchantment and only starting non I/E spells at the 8th level and so on. Is there somewhere I can get a more certain answer? I don't do twitter, so asking the developers on twitter is beyond my ken (or inclination), so where *could* I go?

Also, one more question about the invisibility issue. If I pick up an item with the visible hand and *then* go invisible, will the item remain visible until deposited by the hand?

 

[Bacon Bits]

1: Is everything handled by MH Legedemain when invisible, invisible too? IE when I pick a pocket with the invisible hand is it invisible too? How about something in the invisible hand that you intend to stow upon another's person is it invisible until the hand lets go of it?


2: The wording on the spells learned at 3rd level seems to be saying that 1 non illusion/enchantment spell can be learned, but when talking about spells at higher levels where it says you can switch out non illusion/enchantment spells learned at 8th, 14th and 20th levels it does not include the 3rd level spell. So, is it that you cannot learn a spell from other schools until 8th level, or can you just not replace the 3rd level spell for some reason?

1) No. Invisibility doesn't affect mage hand or objects carried by mage hand any more than it would affect tenser's floating disk or wall of stone or summon elemental. Whether or not it affects mage armor is up to the DM, but it's arguable either way (i.e., you must rule on whether or not it's "worn").

For that matter, An invisible character picking up an object in general (i.e., without mage hand) is left up to the DM. We always play that by default an object you pick up remains invisible unless you're able to completely cover it (e.g., with your cloak, which is invisible). This means you can pick stuff up and it appears to float around, and you can make it invisible, too, if you want.

2) You're explicitly allowed to learn one spell from a any school when you gain the feature at 3rd level. Or, rather, one of the three spells you learn at 3rd level doesn't carry any special school requirements. It seems like an oversight to me that the 3rd level known spell wasn't called out on the list of spells known which are eligible to be exchanged for spells of any school. I can't think of a situation where the more open interpretation is game breaking, so I'm inclined to call it an oversight and allow it.

By strictest literal reading of the rules, however, you're allowed to select one spell of any school at 3rd level, but if you exchange it out then the spell must be from one of the two allowed schools. I would recommend against strict readings of the rules for their own sake in 5e, however, because the rules were not written with that in mind. You should do what makes the most sense and isn't broken before falling back on strict literal interpretations.