D&D General Arcanists Without Spell Slots

[doctorbadwolf]

Imagine an Occultist Rogue, with ritual casting but no spell slots, and the ability to perform the function of dispel magic using a skill check, along with perhaps some other odds and ends like choosing a spell per subclass level that they can cast as a ritual that normally lacks the ritual tag, from a curated list. Like a summon spell, a weapon buff, mage armor, etc.

Just riffing.

I wish 5e had support for being an expert in magic without being powrrfully magical yourself. Like as your main character concept not just "i chose expertise arcana".

 

[Horwath]

This sound like 5E needs better skill system,
or just better table of what can be done with certain skills.

what can be done with each skill with what degree of difficulty,
and what is gated behind having proficiency and having expertise.

IE, without proficiency max DC that can be made with certain usages could be 15, without expertise max could be only 20 or 22.
best example would be lockpicking/trap disabling, without proficiency max DC of locks is 15 for you, without expertise, max DC of locks is 20.
same for "knowledge" skills.

some usages could be expertise only:
as you said, dispeling,
if you have expertise in Arcana, you can make a check, DC 10+ 2×spell level to dispel ongoing effect.
you need 10 minutes for the check,
add +5 DC if you want to do it in 1 minute or +10 DC if you want to make it as an Action.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

This sound like 5E needs better skill system,
or just better table of what can be done with certain skills.

That rather goes without saying.

Personally, I think it means we need to go back to the 4e Ritual model. Convert most pure-utility spells into Rituals. Let all full-casters cast a certain number of Rituals instantly each day. Non-casters who acquire Ritual Casting thus need more time, or have to spend expensive components, or have to pass checks or the like. That way, it's quite possible to be very proficient with magic, while not actually being a "spellcaster" in the strict sense.

And, y'know what? That's...pretty much exactly what Rituals were in 4e. Situational but very useful chunks of utility which trained characters could deploy, albeit with some kind of cost. Formal "spellcasters" paid that cost in what class they chose to play--unless they want to cast tons of rituals, then they pay other costs like everyone else. Subclass-spellcasters and non-casters need the training, and always need to sink some amount of resources into it. Perhaps any subclass-caster gets the option of either Ritual Caster as a free bonus feat, or some other utility-related benefit that befits a "I learned a smattering of magic" character.

 

[GM Lent]

I'm interested.

My favorite character type to play - for decades now, on the few occcasions I'm not the GM - is based off characters like John Contantine and Harry D'Amour. That is, skillful, witty, OK in a hand to hand fight, and with a little bit of magic knowledge. In 2e I hashed together a bard to manage it - that worked because the bard had some thief abilities but also had a spellbook they could add magic to. Since 3e it's been more challenging, though.

In 5e I can do it with a Rogue (Thief) and the Ritual Casting feat, though this is also how I learned, to my surprise, that magic circle is not a ritual spell.

I never thougft of having dispel magic and similar as skill checks, but I like the idea, especially since it means the character would get better at it as their Proficiency Bonus increases.

 

[Distracted DM]

Investigator | Base Class - Mage Hand Press

Uncover the truth with the Investigator base class for 5E 2024. Solve mysteries and exterminate supernatural threats with your tome of rituals.

magehandpress.com

This is very close to what's described, I believe.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I'm interested.

My favorite character type to play - for decades now, on the few occcasions I'm not the GM - is based off characters like John Contantine and Harry D'Amour. That is, skillful, witty, OK in a hand to hand fight, and with a little bit of magic knowledge. In 2e I hashed together a bard to manage it - that worked because the bard had some thief abilities but also had a spellbook they could add magic to. Since 3e it's been more challenging, though.

In 5e I can do it with a Rogue (Thief) and the Ritual Casting feat, though this is also how I learned, to my surprise, that magic circle is not a ritual spell.

ABsolutely. My favorite spellcasting character should be a mix of rogue and a nonspellcasting artificer, but is instead a rogue/wizard.

I never thougft of having dispel magic and similar as skill checks, but I like the idea, especially since it means the character would get better at it as their Proficiency Bonus increases.

I have always felt that Arcana, Nature, and Religion, should be skills that you can use actively for more than just knowing stuff. I tend to make rituals require skill checks too, as well as crafting.

Investigator | Base Class - Mage Hand Press

Uncover the truth with the Investigator base class for 5E 2024. Solve mysteries and exterminate supernatural threats with your tome of rituals.

magehandpress.com

This is very close to what's described, I believe.

Oh that us juicy. Thabk you.

 

[bedir than]

Investigator | Base Class - Mage Hand Press

Uncover the truth with the Investigator base class for 5E 2024. Solve mysteries and exterminate supernatural threats with your tome of rituals.

magehandpress.com

This is very close to what's described, I believe.

Does one of the 13 subclasses specialize in countering?

 

[Sorinth]

I do tend to think an expanded ritual casting that is more then just cast a spell without using a spell slot would be worthwhile, but I'm not sure it should be linked to a specific class/subclass. An Occultist Rogue is a fine concept, but I could imagine it also working with Fighters, Druids, Monks, and more.

But the details of how this new/expanded ritual casting matter a lot, for instance I'm not sure I love the idea of it being a skill check simply because that implies failure can and should be a regular occurrence, and given the amount of setup time likely involved, that feels unfun. If we're waiting for a celestial alignment, have gotten a bunch of exotic materials, etc... and then it's just luck if it works or not? No thanks, now on the other hand if the roll wasn't about whether it works but whether there are unforseen consequences, I could get into that, especially if it wasn't too DM heavy.

 

[Distracted DM]

Does one of the 13 subclasses specialize in countering?

The 5e14 antiquarian gets counterspell 1/SR, I don't know about the newer stuff. The 5e14 version had ?12? subclasses.
The antiquarian doesn't get the spellcasting feature, they get ritual spells and a bunch of not-ritual spells as rituals, and a limited number of times/LR they can cast those rituals as a bonus action.