Starfinder [Arcanum of the Stars] "Dragonstarfinder"

[Knightfall]

BTW, for converted Pathfinder Legacy spellcasting classes, assume that any class that goes up to 9th-level spells will only go up to 6th-level spells for Dragonstarfinder. The classes will get other benefits at higher levels to make up for this change.

One option is to make each of the higher slots a pool of points instead and that a character would need a # of mana points to cast higher level magick -- 7th-level slots would be worth two mana points, 8th-level slots would be worth four mana points, and 9th-level slots would be worth six mana points. In order to cast a standard 7th-level spell, a character would need four mana points. In order to cast a standard 8th-level spell, a character would need eight mana points. In order to cast a standard 9th-level spell, a character would need twelve mana points. Lower level spell slots could be sacrificed to gain extra mana points, but 4th- to 6th-level spell slots are worth only one mana point and 1st- to 3rd-level spell slots are worth only 1/2 a mana point (must sacrifice at least two slots to gain one mana point).

Any ability, feat, or other rule that would increase the # of spell slots available to a PC, would give mana points instead for levels 7th through 9th.

Only PF legacy characters would have access to mana points. (Imperial magic won't work the same way. Might work like my next idea.)

Another option would be to allow Legacy PCs (or Imperial PCs using the legacy classes) to use higher level spell slots to cast lower level SF spells. This would work sort of like the Technomancer class feature known as Fuse spells but in reverse. The ability would require the spending of a resolve point. Basically, the caster breaks down the magical energy to turn a high-level spell slot into two lower level spells he/she can cast that are no more than one level apart. A 7th-level spell would be broken down into one 3rd- and one 4th-level spell. A 8th-level spell would be broken down into two 4th-level spells. A 9th-level spell would be broken down into one 4th- and one 5th-level spell. The two spells must be cast lower to higher in subsequent rounds from each other. If for some reason, one of the spells can't be cast, the other spell is lost as well. If a PC has a 'Quickening' ability or feat, the two spells can be cast together in the same round. A PC can do this only once per combat, however.

Thoughts?

 

[Knightfall]

Silhouette would gain 4 + Int modifier for skills and her class skills would be as follows: Acrobatics (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Culture (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disguise (Cha), Engineering (Int), Mysticism (Wis), Perception (Wis), Profession (Cha, Int, or Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Stealth (Dex).

 

[Knightfall]

That's the one I was referring to, yep.

Here's a sample writeup of Silhouette, using the Charisma reflavoring option in that PDF, where the 'guild' features are more like innate abilities. There's a few parts that would need GM adjudication, such as the number of skill points, and possible changes to Guild-centric abilities like Charlatan Cant and so on; these are noted on the sheet. It does give a sense of what's possible though.

Most of Silhouette's 3.5e inventory doesn't translate to Pathfinder, so I just started from scratch with it, keeping the same 56,000gp starting cash.

I might take a level of Shadow Adept instead of a 14th Beguiler level...but then again, might just start Shadow Adept with future levels.

Okay, I'm pretty sure the Fetchling is too powerful as written for SF. Specifically, the spell-like abilities it gains. Look at the drow and gray racial traits on the SFSRD page. Those are official races from the Alien Archive. The gray race has three SLAs, but it has very little else.

So, I don't think having the SLAs is a problem in of itself but to have those and all it's other racial traits would make the standard PF fetchling extremely powerful for SF, IMO. Many of the PF legacy races I've listed would have to modified before being used, I think. I could be overthinking it, but it something we need to consider.

I would say cut one of the SLAs and give the race light blindness like the drow. Plus, there are no traits and flaws in SF.

FYI, as legacy character in SF, she would have 88 hit points and 112 stamina points. She would also have 13 resolve points.

 

[Shayuri]

Fair enough. I admit, at this point I'm focusing on a Pathfinder conversion, planning on doing a Pathfinder-to-Starfinder conversion once that's done.

Having read the Starfinder book, I got the sense that Legacy classes that cast spells are a bit of an awkward fit into Starfinder for the exact reason you're grappling with here. It doesn't specifically say high level spells should be outlawed...but I get where you're coming from. At that point though we almost would have to just re-engineer the class from scratch though it seems like, since primary spellcasting is kind of burned into it. What sort of changes do you have in mind?

As for the Fetchling, would it be better if I just chose racial options that replaced the SLA's entirely? I think there are some such options.

Hm, though reading the links you provide, it does seem as if Starfinder puts a lot less game balance into race compared to Pathfinder. So yeah, just a straight up across-the-board nerfing is in order to bring it in line with other SF races. That'd be true for most races, it seems.

 

[Shayuri]

Ah, wait, I read too fast! Hah!

One option is to make each of the higher slots a pool of points instead and that a character would need a # of mana points to cast higher level magick -- 7th-level slots would be worth two mana points, 8th-level slots would be worth four mana points, and 9th-level slots would be worth six mana points. In order to cast a standard 7th-level spell, a character would need four mana points. In order to cast a standard 8th-level spell, a character would need eight mana points. In order to cast a standard 9th-level spell, a character would need twelve mana points. Lower level spell slots could be sacrificed to gain extra mana points, but 4th- to 6th-level spell slots are worth only one mana point and 1st- to 3rd-level spell slots are worth only 1/2 a mana point (must sacrifice at least two slots to gain one mana point).

So then the crucial question is how many points do casters get?

Only PF legacy characters would have access to mana points. (Imperial magic won't work the same way. Might work like my next idea.)

That'd be interesting from an RP perspective...magic on Toril does work in a somewhat unique way.

Another option would be to allow Legacy PCs (or Imperial PCs using the legacy classes) to use higher level spell slots to cast lower level SF spells. This would work sort of like the Technomancer class feature known as Fuse spells but in reverse. The ability would require the spending of a resolve point. Basically, the caster breaks down the magical energy to turn a high-level spell slot into two lower level spells he/she can cast that are no more than one level apart. A 7th-level spell would be broken down into one 3rd- and one 4th-level spell. A 8th-level spell would be broken down into two 4th-level spells. A 9th-level spell would be broken down into one 4th- and one 5th-level spell. The two spells must be cast lower to higher in subsequent rounds from each other. If for some reason, one of the spells can't be cast, the other spell is lost as well. If a PC has a 'Quickening' ability or feat, the two spells can be cast together in the same round. A PC can do this only once per combat, however.

Thoughts?

The first idea is an interesting one; though the devil will be in the details. We could use a modified version of the psionics system, perhaps? Rebalanced to something more appropriate for Starfinder?

The second, as far as I can tell, just lets you get more lower level spell slots in lieu of higher level ones. Less attractive of course, but maybe easier to balance.

 

[Shayuri]

Okay so here's a thought on a Starfinder Fetchling:

+2 Dex, +2 Cha, -2 Wis
4 HP
Low-Light Vision
Darkvision 60'
Skilled: +2 Stealth, and (the original material gives Knowledge: Planes, but I'm thinking Bluff might work better here?)
Shadow Blending: Concealment from dim light gives 50% miss chance instead of 20%
Light Blindness

Removed the energy resistances, because those are very powerful in Starfinder. Removed the Spell Like Abilities because I think they're kind of ancillary to the theme of the race. I think of all the Fetchling traits, the Shadow Blending 'feels' the most Fetchlingy, if that makes sense. It really solidifies that whole 'one with shadow' thing they have going.

In comparison with the drow, they give up the bonus to save vs Enchantment and immunity to magic sleep, the bonus to Perception, the spell-like abilities...in exchange for a bump to some skills, a buff to their defenses while in dim light, and low-light vision.

 

[Knightfall]

Fair enough. I admit, at this point I'm focusing on a Pathfinder conversion, planning on doing a Pathfinder-to-Starfinder conversion once that's done.

That's what i figured, i just wanted to point out some key differences (for me as well as you).

Having read the Starfinder book, I got the sense that Legacy classes that cast spells are a bit of an awkward fit into Starfinder for the exact reason you're grappling with here. It doesn't specifically say high level spells should be outlawed...but I get where you're coming from. At that point though we almost would have to just re-engineer the class from scratch though it seems like, since primary spellcasting is kind of burned into it. What sort of changes do you have in mind?

See, I'd would prefer not to re-engine the classes. That would take a lot of time. For the classes that have already been done in the Starfarer's Companion, I will likely hold off working on too much until I have it. (Hopefully by the weekend. No money right now.) However, I do know that some of the converted spellcasting classes in that book were reworked to go all the way to 9th-level, which doesn't really fit well with what's in the core rules. Thus, my idea of using those higher level spell slots as mana points instead.

Another option would to be to follow the rule for casting the wish spell under Fuse Spells on p. 120 of the SFCR. The character spends 2 resolve points to combine two 6th-level spell slots to cast wish, which is considered a 9th-level spell, but without an official spell level (see in the Magic and Spells chapter, p. 385). It's spell level is listed as a "–". So, I'm thinking that a legacy spellcasting PC can spend 1 Resolve Point to combine two 4th- or 5th-level spell slots to cast 7th- and 8th-level PF spells respectively. The casting of 9th-level spells would exactly like with the wish spell. It would be a simple solution and would balance the PF legacy classes more with the SF classes.

This would probably be the best option for Imperial characters (and would make my life a whole lot easier). Outlands PCs could/would have the mana points with the ability to cast more high level spells but wouldn't be as well versed in technology or 'Imperial' spells.

As for the Fetchling, would it be better if I just chose racial options that replaced the SLA's entirely? I think there are some such options.

Hm, though reading the links you provide, it does seem as if Starfinder puts a lot less game balance into race compared to Pathfinder. So yeah, just a straight up across-the-board nerfing is in order to bring it in line with other SF races. That'd be true for most races, it seems.

Perhaps for fetchling, you get to choose a # of the abilities for your PC. I'll have to take a closer look at that race. And yes, all the races are less powerful, it seems. Perhaps to balance with the idea of themes. When you convert to SF, it might be best if you pick the Themeless option unless you have an idea for a custom theme you want to build.

 

[Knightfall]

So then the crucial question is how many points do casters get?

Well, for Sil, her three 7th-level spell slots would be equal to 6 mana points.

A 20th-level beguiler would have a total of 72 mana points (not including converted 1st- to 6th-level spell slots). (7th: 6 X 2 = 12; 8th: 6 X 4 = 24; 9th: 6 X 6 = 36 | 12 + 24 + 36 = 72)

In theory, that character could cast eighteen 7th-level spells or nine 8th-level spells or six 9th-level spells. Or he/she could cast any combination as long as he/she has enough mana left. If he/she comes up short for one last mana-based spell, the cast could sacrifice a lower level slot to boost her mana points to cast the spell.

Only PF legacy characters would have access to mana points. (Imperial magic won't work the same way. Might work like my next idea.)

That'd be interesting from an RP perspective...magic on Toril does work in a somewhat unique way.

That's what I was thinking.

Mana would represent high-level magic untouched by technology.

The first idea is an interesting one; though the devil will be in the details. We could use a modified version of the psionics system, perhaps? Rebalanced to something more appropriate for Starfinder?

The second, as far as I can tell, just lets you get more lower level spell slots in lieu of higher level ones. Less attractive of course, but maybe easier to balance.

Using the psionics system could work but that sounds more like a rebuild. Let's only go there if we have to.

The second option does feel a bit clunky to me, which is why I prefer my new idea of following the wish example. That would also allow high level Imperial spellcasting classes to cast converted Dragonstar spells but with less # of castings available.

 

[Buddha the DM]

This website has much of the content from the Starfarer's Companion on it so you can use it as a stop gap until you get your own copy which I highly recommend.

 

[Shayuri]

One thing I'm fiddling with right now is building the Beguiler as a kind of Operative/Spellcaster class, in the same vein that the Technomancer is a Mechanic/Spellcaster class. Following a similar standard 'pattern' of abilities as a normal core class in Starfinder.

This is not to try to usurp any work you're doing or plan to do with Legacy class adaptation, but rather as an exercise for myself, and perhaps a fallback position in case other adaptations just don't work out.

One interesting thing I've already noted is that the Starfinder spell lists have a fair amount of wiggle room in them, as far as spell levels go. They work kind of like the bard lists in Pathfinder. The 5th level spells for example, have a few 4th and 6th level spells mixed in. The 6th level spells occupy a range of 5th-7th level. All compared to the sorceror-wizard list, of course.

So there's room in building a Beguiler spell list for some flexibility in that vein as well.