Are alignments relative?

Salutations,

Oh, I really disagree with that- I think people (individually and in social organizations) care very much about their self-image and self-respect. Very few people can be content and consider themselves bad people- it is why you almost always find people that do wretched things (big or small) have a list of reasons for why they had to do it.

FD
 

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Are alignments relative? - No.

In DnD Good Evil, Law Chaos are all very real, outsiders are a prime example of it.
As are spells like Protection from Good or the Paladin's Smite Evil ability.
So it's not relative, "It is Evil, therefore I can Smite it."
 

Avatar, I think the only way to run that kind of game effectively is to outlaw spells and abilities that detect alignment. That would add a whole new dimension to the game, IMO. It's tough to have moral uncertainty when your "detect evil" is reading the guy sitting across the room as Screwtape's second cousin. See if you can manage to start the two groups off with goals that are very nearly mutually exclusive. It would help if the groups had very different interpretations of good so that they could both have fairly benevolent goals but still seem to be running in different directions most of the time. Require the two groups to actually figure out what's going on. Maybe, in order to succeed in the campaign, they have to figure out that they're actually on the same side and combine forces to take out the real BBEG.

Sounds pretty ambitious actually. You'd have to REALLY know the groups well to even attempt it.

That aside, I don't think good and evil are any less "real" in real life than in DnD. We make them abstract to make ourselves feel better about all the nasty little things we do all the time. A belief in a Supreme Being or lack thereof has very little to do with it. All that does is modify the particulars slightly.
 

Avatar, I think the only way to run that kind of game effectively is to outlaw spells and abilities that detect alignment.

No, each side can cast "Detect Evil" or "Protection from Evil", but "evil" just means "the other team" in such a world.
 

A campaign I ran a few years ago involvled a lot of issues about morality, good, evil and all the sorts of things this thread is talking about. This is sort of relevant to the idea of two groups both considering themselves good.

I should point out that this was a Rolemaster campaing, without alignments; but there was still a very clear distinction between good and evil as embodied in the gods and general religious beliefs following on from their attitudes.

The campaign ended up with fairly strong religious themes; about half the party used magic that would in d&d terms be considered divine (or partially divine).

Once the overriding plot had established itself, it was a fairly typical "We are the good guys, serving some nice gods, seeking to prevent the return of a long banished god of ultimate evil."

As the campaign progressed, it became clear that some gods (most of them evil) seemed to be dying. The followers of a some of these gods had turned to a new cult prophesying the coming of a new power. The party began to learn that a mega-powerful seafaring race were in fact long-fallen gods of another pantheon that once coexisted with the currently worshipped gods. And they met a rather nasty fellow who had worshipped a vicious, xenophobic, human sacrificing god of a foreign pantheon. This PC quickly learned that his god too was dead, and that another had stepped in to take his place. This new god was one known to the rest of the party, and was also evil. But this evil god was telling his cleric to work with the good guys. And the good guys' gods were saying let him.

Finally, towards the very end of the campaign, the Demon Lord Sith, one of the highest servants of the enemy, appeared to the group and told his side of the story.

Big Nasty Coming Back from the Dead god was at war with most of the other gods. A few had come over to his side. It was admitted openly that he was not a nice guy. But, he had a genuine problem with the way the current set of gods treated the PCs world. He saw the rest of the gods as a bunch of silly, bickering children who used the races of this world to fight their endless wars. He pointed out how fickle they were, and how easily they suddenly joined forces with sworn enemies at opposite ends of the moral spectrum, to fight him. How they would return straight to their infighting, if they won. And how the people of the world would continue to be no more than pawns in their endless game.

He explained how both he and the previously mentioned race of fallen gods had been cast down because they didn't agree with all this foolishness.

He had returned for revenge, yes, but if he got it, he would not make the world a terrible place. He would leave it in peace - he had better things to do than torment a few mortals for sick pleasure. Unlike the current regime.

In the end, the party split down the middle, half of them going over to the "bad" guys, the other half staying with the "good" guys. (Except one PC, who commited suicide because she believed changing sides was morally wrong, but the PC she loved had gone over).

The most enjoyable aspect for me was that the two groups, unknowingly, virtually proved Sith's point for him.

The "good" guys hated their betraying friends, and wanted them to suffer an eternity of pain for their actions.

The "bad" guys hated having had to betray their friends, and wanted the final showdown to be as bloodless as possible.

Anyway, possibly some ideas in there for anyone wanted to run a campaign with blurred moral and ethical lines.

Oh yeah, the "bad" guys won. And the world ended up being a much better place for it. (If the "good" guys had triumphed, the world would also have ended up being better for it (it was pretty screwed at the start of the campaign, with evil gods prevailing overall), but the new stability would have fallen appart after a few millenia, at most.)
 

mmadsen said:
No, each side can cast "Detect Evil" or "Protection from Evil", but "evil" just means "the other team" in such a world.

Sorry. Too morally relativistic for me. If they seek good, they are good. Methods of getting there may differ, but good is good. If you're getting your spells by arcane methods, maybe it would be relative to your viewpoint. But if you're getting them by divine means, the line would be drawn clearly.

Besides, without those spells to lean on, players would have to judge characters by their actions. "But Canis," you say, "That would require players to <gasp> think!"

Damn straight. And it would be a better game for it.

Or think of it this way... let's say both groups are good guys, but they detect to each other as evil. Is the Paladin in the one group ever going to want to join forces with the other? Would he be able to under his code of conduct? That set-up makes it more likely that the campaign turns into a war of attrition between the two groups who are both convinced the other is evil for no other reason than that *their magic tells them so.* Forget that. Make them put the pieces together, just like in real life. Real people don't carry around placards that read "Lawful good" "Chaotic Evil" or even "Basically a nice guy, but I hate cats." Why do role-playing characters? All it does is remove thought from the game.
 

People generally think well of themselves in spite of being detected as Evil.

And this is also the reason I much perfer just using a philosophical point of view to describe a character instead of an alignment.

Even the Tanar'ri and Baatezu don't go around "Hehe I'm evil! Hehe I'm evil". The bloodwar (despite people hating PS :P) demonstrates that aspect well.
 

Funny, I always thought that alignment was more like a relative- a cheek-pinching, lecture-giving, chain-smoking aunt Selma that you could never get rid of.

But yeah, alignment is pretty much said to be absolute, like others have said.

However, the presence of neutral gods of various philosphies that allow evil priests (particularly LE) confuse things. This is escpecially true when these are gods of concepts that usuallly are thought of as parts of good- like protection and law. Helm of the FR setting is a great example of this- he exists to protect and enfore the laws- and yet allows LE fanatical brimstone type clerics to serve him. So like what others have said, what society (and even certain gods) might think is good is not Good according to the alignment system.

Another complication lies in detirmining what specific actions are considered good. There seems to be a variety of opinions among the gaming community of what is and is not good in game.
 

Thanks!

Once again, I'd like to thank everyone for their responses. They have been quite informative.

If I ever do decide to run a two party game with the parties working at odds, I'll have to give some very deep thought to the roles the characters will play and what to do about detect alignment spells.

Unless of course, I get volunteers to play the evil party. :)

Thanks again,

Alan
 

Alignment is not relative, but the rules are.

That is, it is up to each DM to decide how to interpret them. It is also beholden on the DM to communicate this interpretation to players.

What do I mean?

Good is defined as altruistic and interested in common welfare. Evil is defined as having no interest in the happiness of anyone around the character, and possibly even enjoying tormenting them.

Ok so far. Buuut... who gets to decide what the common welfare is? If a character completely believes that poisoning everyone in a town is vital to their happiness, is it a good act? Is the character good?
What if it turns out all the townsfolk are turning into vampires and will be quite happy once they get to the afterlife, to start anew?
What if the character is simply wrong, or horribly misinformed?

If you are good, to have to be good to _all_ beings? Are some beings more deserving of good acts than others?


And so on.

-=Will
 

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