Azure Trance
First Post
I agree with DM Veng; wizards and the high powered ilk would be focusing on their high powered enemies who are their biggest threat, while the 'regular' lower level soldiers duke it out in the background.
are armies any good?
- Thread starter alsih2o
- Start date
Victim
First Post
shilsen said:
But that doesn't mean that Druids and other high level character - like Druids - can't act as weapons of mass destruction.
High level characters might involve themselves in a war for many reasons. First of all, they might fight because of their beliefs. Strongly motived characters might be the ones starting war - a paladin leading a great crusade against the forces of evil, etc. Some characters may also have an obligation - perhaps they swore fealty earlier, or must repay a debt. Finally, characters involved in magical research, or item crafting will occur hefty expenses and will require funding.
shilsen
Adventurer
Victim said:
Sepulchrave's Story Hour does actually have a high-level druid causing incredible amounts of destruction in a military scenario.
The reason I said I'm using a variant on his ban is that in my campaign all spellcasters are subject to the ban, and it applies specifically to magic used for offensive purposes and only to political conflicts. So there's a lot of space for characters and NPCs to work within, without the risk of the fireball-wand-wielding mage changing the entire concept of warfare in the campaign setting. Works for me.
I just gave special attention to druids because I felt like it.
Andor
First Post
Armies would exist in D&D, and they would be used pretty much the way they are today. High level characters are almost exact analoges to combat aircraft and tanks. Fast, hard to kill, capable of great destruction, and untterly incapable of holding land.
For limited warfare, High level characters would be all that is needed. IE: If your objective is to take out a single small target you send in a party and have done.
For anything requireing occupation of the enemy territory an army will be needed. It might not even be needed to end the war, but you will need it afterwards. (EG: Japan at the end of WW2.)
For limited warfare, High level characters would be all that is needed. IE: If your objective is to take out a single small target you send in a party and have done.
For anything requireing occupation of the enemy territory an army will be needed. It might not even be needed to end the war, but you will need it afterwards. (EG: Japan at the end of WW2.)
s/LaSH
First Post
All this talk of a non-magical-agression pact brings up an interesting point.
What happens if the magic-users decide they don't want anyone to make war? You get vast numbers of low-level characters against smaller numbers of vastly powerful characters, with no real minions on the side of the archmages, and no real artillery on the side of the rabble.
This could be an interesting scenario...
What happens if the magic-users decide they don't want anyone to make war? You get vast numbers of low-level characters against smaller numbers of vastly powerful characters, with no real minions on the side of the archmages, and no real artillery on the side of the rabble.
This could be an interesting scenario...
drnuncheon
Explorer
s/LaSH said:
Anothe rthing to think about is, what are your own high-level people doing in this scenario? For every fireball-chucking sorcerer on the other side, you ought to have one ready to counterspell his efforts, and some decent-level fighters equipped with nice bows and see invisible to act as anti-"bomber" fire (or even with fly themselves to act as interceptors). High-level characters tend to cancel each other out, unless one side has a great advantage in numbers or quality.
And even with all the magical stuff, making it look more like a modern battlefield than a medieval one - what with air support, special forces, heavy armor, etc - it's still the poor bloody infantry that has to get in there and hold the land.
J
city-states
First Post
City-States of Ereb (Players do not read)
I'm currently running a game in a campaign world of my design with two high level parties on opposite sides of a continent. The PCs basically represent the highest level character of their respective class in the city they occupy. They began in slightly impoverished small cities with standard demographics following the guidelines of the DMG. The parties each started with 36,000 exp (so mostly 9th level). All standard rules were available and widespread. Supplemental rules were allowed in degrees. The Western party is largely good the eastern party is largely evil. Each party follows a particular minor deity (truly minor, below demigod... each is tied to the local region). The good party outnumbers the evil party due to the fact that the evil party is the more experienced gamers of the two. The continent is almost Europe sized so conflict between the two is in no way imminent. They don't even know where to look for their player opponents other than vaguely Eastward (or Westward).
For general info some typical stats for an average small city are as follows:
8,500 inhabitants, no items over 15,000 gp, total wealth of the community is 6,375,000 gp. The highest level PCs are Brb8, Brd9, Clr9, Dru9, Ftr10, Mon8, Pal8, Rng8, Rog10, Sor8, Wiz8. Adept9, Nob8, Com16, War11.
The games have been going for about 4 sessions now for each party. I didn't start the parties in control of their cities but had them win control from the collapsing reminants of an old empire. So there was a higher level Baron (aristocrat) and his accompanying lackeys running each of their cities as well as a high level priest to a foreign god of the old empire. Both parties have now mostly managed to consolidate power in their respective cities.
Oddly enough there were a number of skirmish engagements along the way. So far the game hasn't progressed into full scale warfare, but there have been a few massive encounters.
The evil party made a surgical strike and assassinated their Baron, taking his head. They framed a famous highwayman for the murder and hunted him down bringing his head to plant on the front gate of the city walls while returning the severed head of the late baron (which they planted on the highwayman). They bought the captain of the town watch. They've also planted a holy relic of their creation and orchestrated its discovery.
The good party has been rallying the people to overthrow their opressors. Inciting rebellion in the local taverns. Incidentally they have been more reactive letting the powers that be act first. So they have been on the defensive... trying not to be assassinated in their sleep and such. After freeing their sorcerer (who was imprisoned for fireballing an inn to defeat an assassination attempt) they rallied a small group of townsfolk to storm the manor building and captured the baron driving off his sorcerous mistress.
Skirmishes occurred when the evil party assaulted the highwayman's band and when the good party assaulted the baron's guard at his manor.
Things of note. Higher level characters dominate skirmish battle obviously. Fireballs and even soundbursts decimate ranks of troops. They act much like artillery in these engagements. Ranks of troops are not useless though... and in particular troops with good cover and missle fire prove quite useful. They have dished out a fair amount of damage to the party in both cases (brigands behind boulders, and troops behind arrow slits). Ground troops were not without effect and managed to dish out a few points of damage here and there that began to wear on the PCs.
In both cases the special abilities of the PCs were able to break the combat in favor of their forces, but not before expending resources (spells and Hps). The NPCs were not without their high level characters and they sometimes took their toll. The evil party was good at neutralizing the high NPCs abilities (steal the highwayman's weapons and he's defanged, drive away the wizard from fear of assassination in her sleep). The good party had significant trouble with the baron's mistress, a high level sorcerer. She managed to feeblemind 3 of the party including their sorcerer and to empowered fireball the 20 or so commoners as they were barricading the doors to the barracks (and in doing open the doors to the barracks). They also had trouble with the baron's master of arms... he was kicking ass with net and trident until they sundered his weapons. That's when the sorcereress polymorphed him into a gray render and it got ugly.
Ultimately the combats had high casualties for the low level NPCs. A number of them were not truly dead but only mostly dead. With only some cantrips or heal checks they would live. And even without aid 10% would survive from stabilizing. Of course no one is bringing back those 20 commoners who were empowered fireballed. Impact on the low character's mindset is to attack in HUGE numbers, or from cover, or not at all. In the battle with the gray render master of arms the host of guards stood back and helped when the PCs came near but generally stayed out of the way.
Currently there is an army on its way towards the evil player's city. Their baron was hording tax money until he could buy a legion's general. With the empire fallen the general goes to the highest bidder. The baron is dead but the legion is already on the march. The baron's wizard advisor is enroute to meet with the army. The baron's master of arms is holding the manor as in siege until the army comes. A legion practically has the demographics of a small city in itself give or take...
This campaign has the possibilities to field test most of the concerns about high level characters and combat. I'm also looking for ideas as to running armies in a magic world. I'll see about starting a thread and keeping you posted... of course I've got at least one player who reads these boards so hopefully information won't leak.
-C
I'm currently running a game in a campaign world of my design with two high level parties on opposite sides of a continent. The PCs basically represent the highest level character of their respective class in the city they occupy. They began in slightly impoverished small cities with standard demographics following the guidelines of the DMG. The parties each started with 36,000 exp (so mostly 9th level). All standard rules were available and widespread. Supplemental rules were allowed in degrees. The Western party is largely good the eastern party is largely evil. Each party follows a particular minor deity (truly minor, below demigod... each is tied to the local region). The good party outnumbers the evil party due to the fact that the evil party is the more experienced gamers of the two. The continent is almost Europe sized so conflict between the two is in no way imminent. They don't even know where to look for their player opponents other than vaguely Eastward (or Westward).
For general info some typical stats for an average small city are as follows:
8,500 inhabitants, no items over 15,000 gp, total wealth of the community is 6,375,000 gp. The highest level PCs are Brb8, Brd9, Clr9, Dru9, Ftr10, Mon8, Pal8, Rng8, Rog10, Sor8, Wiz8. Adept9, Nob8, Com16, War11.
The games have been going for about 4 sessions now for each party. I didn't start the parties in control of their cities but had them win control from the collapsing reminants of an old empire. So there was a higher level Baron (aristocrat) and his accompanying lackeys running each of their cities as well as a high level priest to a foreign god of the old empire. Both parties have now mostly managed to consolidate power in their respective cities.
Oddly enough there were a number of skirmish engagements along the way. So far the game hasn't progressed into full scale warfare, but there have been a few massive encounters.
The evil party made a surgical strike and assassinated their Baron, taking his head. They framed a famous highwayman for the murder and hunted him down bringing his head to plant on the front gate of the city walls while returning the severed head of the late baron (which they planted on the highwayman). They bought the captain of the town watch. They've also planted a holy relic of their creation and orchestrated its discovery.
The good party has been rallying the people to overthrow their opressors. Inciting rebellion in the local taverns. Incidentally they have been more reactive letting the powers that be act first. So they have been on the defensive... trying not to be assassinated in their sleep and such. After freeing their sorcerer (who was imprisoned for fireballing an inn to defeat an assassination attempt) they rallied a small group of townsfolk to storm the manor building and captured the baron driving off his sorcerous mistress.
Skirmishes occurred when the evil party assaulted the highwayman's band and when the good party assaulted the baron's guard at his manor.
Things of note. Higher level characters dominate skirmish battle obviously. Fireballs and even soundbursts decimate ranks of troops. They act much like artillery in these engagements. Ranks of troops are not useless though... and in particular troops with good cover and missle fire prove quite useful. They have dished out a fair amount of damage to the party in both cases (brigands behind boulders, and troops behind arrow slits). Ground troops were not without effect and managed to dish out a few points of damage here and there that began to wear on the PCs.
In both cases the special abilities of the PCs were able to break the combat in favor of their forces, but not before expending resources (spells and Hps). The NPCs were not without their high level characters and they sometimes took their toll. The evil party was good at neutralizing the high NPCs abilities (steal the highwayman's weapons and he's defanged, drive away the wizard from fear of assassination in her sleep). The good party had significant trouble with the baron's mistress, a high level sorcerer. She managed to feeblemind 3 of the party including their sorcerer and to empowered fireball the 20 or so commoners as they were barricading the doors to the barracks (and in doing open the doors to the barracks). They also had trouble with the baron's master of arms... he was kicking ass with net and trident until they sundered his weapons. That's when the sorcereress polymorphed him into a gray render and it got ugly.
Ultimately the combats had high casualties for the low level NPCs. A number of them were not truly dead but only mostly dead. With only some cantrips or heal checks they would live. And even without aid 10% would survive from stabilizing. Of course no one is bringing back those 20 commoners who were empowered fireballed. Impact on the low character's mindset is to attack in HUGE numbers, or from cover, or not at all. In the battle with the gray render master of arms the host of guards stood back and helped when the PCs came near but generally stayed out of the way.
Currently there is an army on its way towards the evil player's city. Their baron was hording tax money until he could buy a legion's general. With the empire fallen the general goes to the highest bidder. The baron is dead but the legion is already on the march. The baron's wizard advisor is enroute to meet with the army. The baron's master of arms is holding the manor as in siege until the army comes. A legion practically has the demographics of a small city in itself give or take...
This campaign has the possibilities to field test most of the concerns about high level characters and combat. I'm also looking for ideas as to running armies in a magic world. I'll see about starting a thread and keeping you posted... of course I've got at least one player who reads these boards so hopefully information won't leak.
-C
Saeviomagy
Adventurer
In terms of large scale combats, I'm surprised noone has mentioned the bard. Consider an entire army on +1/+1.
Fireball nothing - Or the bard rides out front of his army, starts speaking, and all of a sudden your entire front line just... stops. And listens to him. And seem to agree with him (enthrall, quadruple enlarged is a 1500ft area). Or your army flees (triple enlarged fear - at 20th, that's a 300ft long and wide cone). Or they just die (double enlarged shout is 225ft long and wide).
Admittedly those last two can be done by a wizard too, only larger.
Fireball nothing - Or the bard rides out front of his army, starts speaking, and all of a sudden your entire front line just... stops. And listens to him. And seem to agree with him (enthrall, quadruple enlarged is a 1500ft area). Or your army flees (triple enlarged fear - at 20th, that's a 300ft long and wide cone). Or they just die (double enlarged shout is 225ft long and wide).
Admittedly those last two can be done by a wizard too, only larger.
You talk about a few high level paladins being able to take on an entire orcish horde, but you forget one of the major benifits of third edition: scaling. A few high level paladins will be able to dominate a normal orc, but when you create an actual orcish horde, things become much different.
Orc Chief (Fighter 8/Rogue 6)
Orc Witchdoctor (Fighter 2/Druid 14)
Ogre Slaves, etc
There are easy easy ways of making armies needed in third edition D&D.
~~Brandon
Orc Chief (Fighter 8/Rogue 6)
Orc Witchdoctor (Fighter 2/Druid 14)
Ogre Slaves, etc
There are easy easy ways of making armies needed in third edition D&D.
~~Brandon
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