are armies any good?

[elbandit]

One problem you might run into is challenging 1st level characters. If the common veteran soldier is higher level than they are, what use are the PCs going to be?

Why are 1st level characters fighting an army? I am refering to when armies finally go to war. However if the GM insists on throwing 1st level players agaist a marauding army then they would defiently have to be part of the militia used in defense of a town or counter attack or perhaps undertake a mission to slow down some aspect of the offensive.

 

[jasamcarl]

The problem with a number of the perspectives taken here is that you assume that mass low leveled armies and elite adventureres are 'substitutes', i.e. they are good for the same thing. I see them more as compliments. Let's say two 10th level parties of 4 members each are facing each other. What would one party rather have, another 10th character or an army of 1000. Given the increased leathality of crits and some spells at this level, I think the consistency of a well spread army cannot be underestimated, with aid another and grapple checks in hand, plus all the other advantages everyone has listed. If an invisible flying mage is dispelled 200 ft from the sight of party v. party battle, he/she would most likely be subject to multiple ranged attacks from the warriors below, and if another fly spell is not prepared, will be grapped and slugged to death quite easily.

It comes down to the benfits that large numbers inherently have on creating a predictable battlefield. The pure quantity of attacks an army can make, as well as its ability to take any single attack without an insta-kill makes it a pretty good tactical asset.

 

[LostSoul]

Why are 1st level characters fighting an army? I am refering to when armies finally go to war.

I think you misunderstood me. I was speaking about challenges in the broader sense of the game.

If you have veterans at 2nd or 3rd level, these are going to be the typical "guards" that PCs face. At 1st level, these guards are going to be too powerful for the PCs to face.

If you have a tribe of orcs or goblins in the hills, why don't the higher level soldiers just wipe them out? The PCs aren't anything special - except maybe in their ineptitude.

So you're left with challenges for the PCs that aren't important enough for the guards to deal with.

This isn't a big problem, but it's something to consider.

 

[LostSoul]

Which is better, a 20th level archmage, or a 20th level archmage with 10,000 armed men at his back?

Whichever one wins initiative.

 

[Victim]

Obviously, the archmage backed up by the army.

However, the reason issue is whether the impact that a few thousand guys brings to a battle between archmages is worth the cost equiping and bringing the guys to the battlefied so they can get killed by spells aimed mostly at the other archmage. Especially if you load up soldiers with alchemist's fire or tanglefoot bags, armies are real expensive.

Also, you might have a hard time convincing the archmage without the army to face his opponent under those conditions. While not attack while the army is being mustered and equiped, or breach the other mage's sanctum while he's wandering around with the army.

It's not just a matter of high level characters and thousands of guys throwing down. Logistics matter. Armies have to march places. They eat lots of food. They require lots of support personel. A ten thousand man force will thousands of support people. It is too expensive to throw around casually, with the expectation of insane losses.

And yes, losses will be insane. Compare casuality rates between DnD skirmishes and real battles. Pickett's charge was something like 50% casualities for the attackers. Now look at battles involving characters.

On the side of the army, I think normal morale issues would largely be negated by magic. Spells that boost bravery are low level. Magical conditioning might be common - but could be a double edged sword. Effects like the Rod of Rulership could prevent routs of critical units. Of course, magical attempts to usurp loyalty or cause fear might be problematic.

 

[Ace]

I think you misunderstood me. I was speaking about challenges in the broader sense of the game.

If you have veterans at 2nd or 3rd level, these are going to be the typical "guards" that PCs face. At 1st level, these guards are going to be too powerful for the PCs to face.

If you have a tribe of orcs or goblins in the hills, why don't the higher level soldiers just wipe them out? The PCs aren't anything special - except maybe in their ineptitude.

So you're left with challenges for the PCs that aren't important enough for the guards to deal with.

This isn't a big problem, but it's something to consider.

Those are good points LostSoul.

IMC an average well trained soldier is a War3. This does mean he is to tough for L1 PC's but I figure L1 is a raw recruit out of basic or a wizards 15 year old apprentice.

Most PC's start at 2-3 level to keep things on even keel. Just for comparison a Cleric won't have his own church till he can cast L3 spells and a Wizard isn't considered a journeyman till he can cast L3 spells.

 

[Ace]

I think in a D&D setting armies are mostly used for defense. This reduces supply and cost issues and keep enemies for teleporting into the fields and burning them and other nasty tactics

If the average person is low level (1-5) commoner or expert it helps to understand how nasty a high level caster can be

Not onlyis there the classic fly and fireball the fields approach but immagine the damage that coould be inmflicted with a few Planar Bound demons lose in a city.

An army is very usefull for putting down problems like that.

OTHO if your cities lack adequate defense it only takes one or two groups of high level adventurers to cause tremendous damage to a fantasy kingdom

.

 

[Zaruthustran]

Maybe its just be, but in D&D I think that an experienced marauding army is not going to just be level 1 warriors... despite what the DMG says. I see level 1 warriors as conscripts and militia men. Professional soliders will be fighters or higher level warriors and depending on how magical your campaign is, might have enchanted weaponry of some type.

Well, by definition conscripts are going to be commoners--normal folks pressed into the army. Well trained militia and the like will be warriors, and full-time professional soldiers are going to be fighters. Generals will most likely be Nobles or Experts, and only very rarely will they have many actual Warrior or Fighter levels--it was virtually impossible for late medieval/renaissance-era generals to "rise through the ranks".

I say late medieval/renaissance because that's when professional armies came back into fashion. After the fall of Rome, most armies were just masses of conscripts led by a bunch of nobles (and their tiny retinues of professional house guards).

I'd suggest:
Typical conscript = Commoner 1
Experienced conscript = Commoner 1 Warrior 1

Consripts would have feats like Skill Focus: [non-combat skill], Endurance, Iron Will or other saving throw feat, or other non-magic feat not found on the Bonus Fighter Feat list.

Typical soldier = Warrior 1
Experienced soldier = Warrior 1-2 / Fighter 1
Typical squad leader = Warrior 2-3
Experienced squad leader = Warrior 2-3 / Fighter 1-2
Typical Elite Soldier = Fighter 1-2
Experienced Elite Soldier = Fighter 3-4 / Expert 1-2
Typical Elite Squad Leader = Fighter 3-4 / Expert 1-2
Experienced Elite Squad Leader = Fighter 4-6 / Expert 2-4

Soldiers should have feats from the Bonus Fighter Feat list. Warrior and Fighter skills ranks would go to Ride, Craft (armor, weapons), and cross-class Profession: soldier (if no Expert levels), the Expert levels are for skills like Profession: Soldier, Knowledge: Warfare, Listen, Spot and Hide, Survival, etc.

Champion = Fighter 2-4
Experienced Champion = Fighter 6-10

Champions should probably pursue a feat chain, in addition to Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization.

Typical Officer = Expert 2 or Noble 2
Experienced Officer = Expert 4 or Noble 4
Typical General = Expert 4-6 or Noble 4-6
Experienced General = Expert 8-10 or Noble 8-10

(Assuming officers are nobles or others who have purchased their rank.) Feats would vary between social and military Skill Focuses, depending on how seriously the officer took his command. Might also include Leadership. Would probably not include any Fighter feats, but the more adventurous might want to buy the feats for heavy armor or particular martial weapons (but then again, those adventurous types would probably just take a level in Fighter or Warrior). Skills would vary, but there'd be at least a few ranks in Knowledge (Warfare, Nobility, Geography, History, maybe Nature, etc.) Profession (Soldier, maybe Sailor for the Navy), Ride, Sense Motive, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Bluff.

-z, army afficionado

 

[Ace]

Just to keep the ball rolling here is a typical military layout from my game

The basic military unit of Vinyar is called a con--

It consists of 8 squads , 4 Infantry, 1 Scout, 3 Archery, and 4 Officers (High Level types) -- 200 men total
Each Officer is responsible for 2 squads, the sargeants report to him and he reports to the Warleaders if appropriate


Each Squad contains

2 Wizards (elementalists actually) One is at least 5th level the other 7th or more (senior mage). The will have personal items as per the DMG and any issued items as needed for the mission

Each Wizard will have 2 ashani, bodyguards of at least FTr4 with approriate items and issued weapons and armor (+1 or +2)


Each squad has 2 messes of 8 men

An Infantry squad will be
7 War1-4 (usually 2-3) with mail shirt, shied, sword and thrown weapons and a Sargeant 2 levels higher, Warrior Class

An Archery squad will be
7 Ftr 2-5 (usually 3-4) with mail shirt, shield, longbow, and Sidearm. They will have a Sargeant 2 levels higher also Fighter Class

A Scout Squad
8 pairs of Scouts (Scout Class usually) of levels 3+ usually everyone in a pair is within a level of one another. They will have MW studded, sidearms and often a bow

Each con will have a number of magic items held by the officers.

Typical items
Healing Stone (Cast cure minor at will 1000gp)
Magic Arrows and Thrown Weapons (+1 sure striking)
Ioun stones with continual flame on them (2 per squad)
Magic Detectors (cast detect magic at will) 2 usually
Purifiers (cast Purify food and drink at will) 2 Usually
Poison Sniffer (cast detect poison at will) 2 usually
Invisiblity Detectors (cast detect invis at will, always in use) 2 usually

There are tons of other items out there but they are usually issued items

Typical Issued Items
Flight Rings
Firelance casts a 7d l4 fireball at will (56000)
Horsekiller casts a l4 spell, a circle of death varient only on horses
Rings of Sustannce
Food o' Mat (cast Create Food and drink at will, many units will invest in a pair of these and take care of all supply needs)
Flight Ring
Improved Invisiblity Ring
Scrying Devices
Magic Communication Devices
Illusion Generators
Invisiblity Purge Gadgets and more

You wil notice there are no cav units or clerics. ITs not that I don't like the letter 'c' Its just a world specific thing. Clerics are forbidden under pain of loss of powers from enaging in secular war and Vinyar has no horses

 

[LostSoul]

Just to keep the ball rolling here is a typical military layout from my game

So what do the PCs do when they're 1st to 5th level? It sounds like they're totally outclassed.