are armies any good?

alsih2o said:
i was looking over the lists of types and levels of n.p.c.'s in various size towns and it makes me wonder if you folks see armies as being regularly being raised in fantasy worlds.

it seems to me that just a few 10th lvl "characters" are an even match and better for most armies. so why raise one?

Well, why do most countries want armies? Defense and offense.

One character has a hard time guarding a border. Heck, one character has a hard time guarding a house. Assuming that the opposing army has half a brain, they will simply march around him and take over their objective. He can't be everywhere.

Similarly, one character cannot effectively take and hold ground. Since the usual reason for a war boils down to "you have land/resources/whatever and we want it", you have to be able to take it and keep it, otherwise there's no reason to have the war in the first place.

If wars were just a couple people getting together so their armies could beat on each other, then yeah, you'd be right - but they're a lot more than that, and to do an army's job, you need an army.

J
 

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abri said:
Sir Killalot the L10 paladin is on his trusted mount, shining in the morning light. he has slain giants, demons and dragons (small one;))
A thousand orcs are facing him, ready to invade his domains.
When he charge shouting "die foul beasts let's see what happen:
a)Stupid paladin:<snip>
b)Smart paladin: <snip>
c) Smart orcs: <snip>

*Really* smart orcs: He spies a detachment of, not 1000 orcs, but 50 orcs. As he charges towards them, they scatter. He chases one down, then another.

Meanwhile, the other 950 orcs are ransacking the defenseless village (since Sir Killalot is so cool, he doesn't need an army), raping and pillaging and doing all the other stuff that orcs do.

When Sir Killalot rides back after having run down and skewered ten of the orcs (the rest having fled), he is greeted with smoldering embers and a dead populace.

J
 

How usefull armies are depends heavily on your game assumptions

a group of ten 10th level characters using good tactics and some magic items borrowed from the kingdom treasury could wipe out thousands of low level types.

Things like Teleport w/o Error Rings, Protection from Arrows items and Rings of Sustenance make warfare very different from anything we can imagine

If epic level charcters become involved in your war whole cities may burn. Rain of Fire effects several miles and there always are worse spells (magic resistant plagues, viral disintegration and more)

My assumption is that the advent of wizards and other blasters mean that mass formations are useless, instead you have small mobile attack teams to support high level types.

Also Pike walls, Cavalry Charges (from Knights) Massed Archers, Big Infantry Walls and so on are useless. One guy with a 56000 magic items can launch unlimited l4, 7d fireballs-- even with a save a 7d fireball will autokill a l1 troop. Give him a ring of teleport w/o error, few other items and unless you have high levels you will likely lose huge numbers of troops

I figure (judging by the PHB spells) magic is 3x to 1x offense to defense

Also all kinds of spellcasters on the battlefield make huge changes, not just mages

Clerics and other healers on the battlefield means either that war is more humane (healing+divine smackdown for wrong doing) or much worse (to the death everytime)

Throw in Teleport, illusion, move earth and stuff like that and well its mass confusion.

Charm Person, Dominate and telepathy means you can't hide battle plans

I leave you to figure the facts out.....

As always YMMV
 

The way I see it, an army is good for controling ground and civilian populations. A single 10th level group won't be able to hold an entire battle front. However, if something attacks at a point along the front, they can quickly deploy to counter attack, or on the offensive, they can probably blow past a defensive line. But they still need guys in place to watch the line, and possibly hold against a dispersed raiding force. So armies will be necessary, but they probably won't be involved in the heaviest fighting.

Also, 10th level characters have the resources and mobility to avoid fighting the army head on. Try marching an army someplace when attackers can pop out of nowhere at any time, attack a section of the army as a camps or marches, and then disappear before you can bring your numbers to bear. A 10th level rogue could stroll right through a picket line, waste sleeping people - preferably commanders, champions, and spellcasters and then escape. Or he could sabotage or poison supplies, etc.

Now consider the 10th level characters on the other side doing the same thing. Fielding an effective army becomes very expensive in both money and lives very fast. While it costs a lot to hire elite adventurers or mercenaries, employing fewer but high level troops has a number of economic advantages. First of all, high level guys are already trained and equiped. Even if the common troops are poorly equiped, the costs add up in large numbers. Also, the supply situation favors elite armies. Since there would be far fewer soldiers, less supplies will be needed. Magical mobility cuts down on travel time, further reducing supply costs. Also, expensive and vulnerable supply trains become unnecessary, which also reduces manpower for further savings. Finally, you can avoid large scale conscription so the economy isn't disrupted.

Finally, Mass spells are only effective on the small unit scale. They are limited in the number of targets by caster level. It's not like Mass Haste would affect a whole battalion.
 

Victim said:

Finally, Mass spells are only effective on the small unit scale. They are limited in the number of targets by caster level. It's not like Mass Haste would affect a whole battalion.

Just to clarify - I was talking about ritual spells(These are collaborative spells that are different from the PHB versions of the spells. They have maybe 10 or so casters working together to cast one really big spell) and, to use Birthright terminology, Battle Spells, both of which could, affect a whole unit, or potentially, an army.
 

Aid Another will seriously number the 10th level character's days. Using Aid Another, you could potentially have an orc or two hitting at +16 every round, giving a good chance of hitting.

Also, AC isn't always king. Touch attacks can be devastating (say, using Acid or Alchemist's Fire). 100 Acid Flasks being thrown at a Paladin will put the hurt on. Even presuming only half hit, that's 50d6 damage (average 175). That's one sizzling 10th level character right there. Not to mention the other 50 will do splash damage, that's another 50 damage. Can YOUR 10th level character take 225 damage in one round?
 

Maybe its just be, but in D&D I think that an experienced marauding army is not going to just be level 1 warriors... despite what the DMG says. I see level 1 warriors as conscripts and militia men. Professional soliders will be fighters or higher level warriors and depending on how magical your campaign is, might have enchanted weaponry of some type.

In my campaigns typically half of an army is gonna be low level warriors (1-5) about a quarter will be fighters of lower level (1-4) and the rest are character types, leaders, higher officers and elites. Oh, and throw in a few monsters for that Age of Mythology theme.

The D&D system was never written with mass combat in mind. I personally feel that an 10th level party should not be able to wipe out an army. I use a mass combat system similar to the orginal 7th sea game.

Your milage may vary.
 

Here's the thing:

10th level PCs are going to have some access to Invisibility (Improved), Fly, Haste, and other protective spells. A Wizard is going to have a wand or two (fireball would be nice). If they don't have this kind of stuff, they aren't going to make it to 11th level.

So that army of orcs isn't going to know what hit them. They're just going to start dying by sword blows or fireballs or whatever your preferred method of dealing death is.

And sure, you can say that the army has x number of higher level characters - but then the fight comes down to those higher level characters only. Whichever side wins the clash between champions is going to win. No question. The army is just a bunch of guys waiting around to be killed.
 

elbandit said:
Maybe its just be, but in D&D I think that an experienced marauding army is not going to just be level 1 warriors... despite what the DMG says. I see level 1 warriors as conscripts and militia men. Professional soliders will be fighters or higher level warriors and depending on how magical your campaign is, might have enchanted weaponry of some type.

One problem you might run into is challenging 1st level characters. If the common veteran soldier is higher level than they are, what use are the PCs going to be? What are they going to fight - rats in the sewers? You'll have to plan this out before you get into the game. One of the simplest solutions is to start out the PCs at 4th level - enough time for a good background and some decent skills.
 

I'll just ask you this question.

Which is better, a 20th level archmage, or a 20th level archmage with 10,000 armed men at his back?
 

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