are armies any good?

[LostSoul]

Armies are not worth it.

You're better off putting all your resources into a few high-powered champions and having them duke it out in a "war of assasins".

If armies do fight, it's only because the high-level characters are busy with each other. In that case, they might be worth it (until one of the high-level characters shows up and decimates the entire army).

With regards to "hits-n'-crits": if you only hit on a natural 20, and crit again on another 20, might as well take a high-damage range weapon with a high critical modifier and low crit range, such as Scythes and Greataxes.

Anyways. The near-uselessness of armies in D&D is a feature.

 

[alsih2o]

even when tyhose lvl 1 warriors hit on the 20 i find it slightly funny that so many folks assume that after the first 35 are dropped, the 36th thru 300th will keep coming.

desertions were a matter of course in such armies, i assume a hero who can kill so easily would only increase such problems.

still, some good points, that is why i ask here

 

[Storminator]

A mass of a 1000 1st level warriors will be destroyed by any 10th level adventuring party worth its salt.

But 1000 1st level warriors, 100 2nd level fighters (sargents), 25 4th level fighters (lieutentants), 25 4th level clerics (specialist support), 5 6th level wizards (artillery), 5 6th level fighters (captains), a 10th level fighter (general) and an 8th level adventuring party (special ops), is a hell of a force to be reckoned with. The key to an army is its officers. That has always been true.

I recently ran a very large combat, and I was actually kind of surprised how limited the high level casters were. A battlefield is huge. When a line of enemies a quarter mile wide and 50 yards deep is charging you, that fireball looks pretty small. Forbiddance, on the other hand, is devastating.

PS

 

[KnowTheToe]

That is why I say level up your soldiers. After a few conflicts the survivors will be War 2, so it would not seem strange to me that full time soldiers could easily be lvl 5. After all, these full time soldiers, train and fight with regularity. Also a good group bull rush using cooperation rules could pin down anyone on the ground.

The army example shows how unneeded epic rules were and how broken the D&D world system is. A few 20th level characters could kill thousands of armed common soldiers, how much power do you need?

 

[diaglo]

even when tyhose lvl 1 warriors hit on the 20 i find it slightly funny that so many folks assume that after the first 35 are dropped, the 36th thru 300th will keep coming.

desertions were a matter of course in such armies, i assume a hero who can kill so easily would only increase such problems.

still, some good points, that is why i ask here

death at the hands of your own side is always a good motivation.

ask the russians in stalingrad or the chinese in korea why they attacked armed enemy troops with only sticks and knives.

sometimes being a low level grunt has a lot of disadvantages.

 

[Shalewind]

Anyways. The near-uselessness of armies in D&D is a feature.

I beg to differ, good sir! Near-Useless? Well it depends on your campaign. 10,000 move acorss the border of a state and burn 100 villages and their crops... Wow! No you have a problem that even 15th level PCs can't deal with... I.E. starvation... death on a massive scale...

I still say drop a PC in the center of 1,000 men and he's dead.

The army example shows how unneeded epic rules were and how broken the D&D world system is. A few 20th level characters could kill thousands of armed common soldiers, how much power do you need?

Agreed... You don't use Epic rules if you are going for anywhere NEAR "realistic fantasy" (and please don't get on my case for the use of the words "realistic fantasy", yes there IS a difference. Just read RJ and Piers Anthony... There IS a difference in the level of realism.)

That's not to say that the battle between Gods can't use Epic rules...

 

[Murrdox]

Hasn't anyone here every played any of the Dynasty Warriors games for PS2?

You can kill hundreds upon hundreds of Chinamen in that game... but toss a couple of generals at you and you're in trouble, and if you use the wrong tactics, you can even be brought down by enough grunts.

It all comes down to morale, and officers.

Look at Lord of the Rings. I assume everyone has read the books or at least SEEN Two Towers. Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas are at LEAST level 10. They make a hell of a lot of difference, it's true, but the situation there was still pretty dire, and they were faced with just an overwhealming hoard of minions... with maybe a few Uruk' hai between levels 5-10

BTW, please don't take me seriously when I translate Lord of the Rings into D&D terms... I was mentally thinking "LEVEL UP" when Gandalf introduced himself as Gandalf the White. I'm a geek, and proud of it, dammit.

 

[abri]

Sir Killalot the L10 paladin is on his trusted mount, shining in the morning light. he has slain giants, demons and dragons (small one)
A thousand orcs are facing him, ready to invade his domains.
When he charge shouting "die foul beasts let's see what happen:
a)Stupid paladin: 400 archers shoot, that's 19 hit and one critical. In average: 99 points of damage, hopes he makes it to melee in one turn.
b)Smart paladin: armor of invulnerability, potion of protection against projectiles... He makes it in HtH with just a few scratch. And then he starts hacking: with great cleave he can kill 9 orcs a turn, (or 18 if using spiked chain/kusari-gama).
So after 2 minutes he has killed 180 orcs, of those on average, 80-90 will have had time to strike a blow, 4 will have hit for 18 points of damage on average. Assuming the orcs don't flee, it will take him 12 minutes to kill the orcs. And he will have taken around 140 pts of damage (better use some healing.
c) Smart orcs: the orcs shamans cast silence where the paladin is hacking so he can't use healing. They have MWed the short sword and arrows of the best orc scouts (rogue), and probably have a few balista (easy enough to carry). And every orc wizard cast Magic missile...
Also we are assuming that the orcs need a nat20 to hit, but even with a basic orc: +3 to hit, +2 flanking, +1 bless spell from a smart shaman. The paladin need a AC of 26 or higher so assuming large shield and plate and dex 12 he needs +5 magical bonus from his armor and shield, let's say shield+3, armor +2. Then invulnerability is +2 or +3, that's quite a lot of equipement for L10 (plus the magic sword...)
If his Ac is 25 he will die after killing half the orcs, if his AC is 24 he won't make it past the 2nd minute
And in the 1000orcs they will be around 100 with higher levels...

 

[Murrdox]

Tossing PCs against small detachements from armies can be amusing sometimes... but combats can be long when you have 50 some-odd combatants versus the party.

 

[Maerdwyn]

Ture Rituals (like those from Relics and Rituals) and spells specifically designed to enhance or heal units/armies are, IMHO, what is necessary to make armies relevent. Take a look at Birthright's Book of Magecraft and the Book of Priestcraft for some ideas.

If your army has a good number of mid level priests and mages who can collaborate to cast a "Mass Greater Magic Weapon" or "Mass Haste" over a whole company, the army itself suddeny becomes much more devastating, relatively cheaply, as long as you can protect the spell casters from the PCs, whose mission it wil certainly be to destroy them.