Are Bards Fascinating in the Dungeon?

[takasi]

We had a brief discussiong at our table last night, and with most of us frequenting these boards we decided to move the topic here and continuing playing.

We have one player in the group (not me) who is playing a bard. He's 6th level, and although he's never had an opportunity (or reason) to Fascinate anyone, he's now considering it for Suggestion.

Another player at the table feels Fascinate is too powerful, because many times the Perform checks will be much higher than anything even a BBEG can save against. However, the only thing the rest of us can really do during the Fascinate is stand still, with no weapons drawn, and not cast any spells (at least not appear to cast any spells). The bard can only do this against one creature. Mechanically I think this is really only useful to get a diplomacy check without a -10 for rushing it.

Suggestion, on the other hand, seems to be balanced (IMO even for combat) because the DC is still relatively low (DC 10 + ½ bard’s level + bard’s Cha modifier).

Specifically for Dungeon Crawls (we're playing Shackled City, and so far it's been very crawl heavy), does anyone here have bards in their party who get opportunities to use Suggestion? At our table it seems like every single time we meet enemies we always "Roll for Initiative", and then the bard isn't allowed to use his Fascinate or Suggestion.

And personally I think, at least in our group, that people think the bard sucks ass without Fascinate, and that with it they think he's "broken". The one player who thinks this is too "broken" says that on boards he's seen people post that the bard is dominating the game using his Suggestions, but then others usually chime in and say "Well wait that doesn't work because it's in combat, bards really only do that (in town) instead of (in the dungeon)". What do you think?

 

[Jedi_Solo]

My current bard has had one chance to use Suggestion (or, at least there has only been one time that I had a chance to use it AND remembered I had the ability). That was when he was tossed into a prison cell. My Bards 'suggested' that the guards go to their boss to confirm something (I don't remember what it was) so the group could work on their escape plan without guards watching over them.

I don't know how that combo would work in combat since any threatening move breaks the fascinate effect.

 

[Jedi_Solo]

Fascinate (Sp)
A bard with 3 or more ranks in a Perform skill can use his music or poetics to cause one or more creatures to become fascinated with him. Each creature to be fascinated must be within 90 feet, able to see and hear the bard, and able to pay attention to him. The bard must also be able to see the creature. The distraction of a nearby combat or other dangers prevents the ability from working. For every three levels a bard attains beyond 1st, he can target one additional creature with a single use of this ability.

To use the ability, a bard makes a Perform check. His check result is the DC for each affected creature’s Will save against the effect. If a creature’s saving throw succeeds, the bard cannot attempt to fascinate that creature again for 24 hours. If its saving throw fails, the creature sits quietly and listens to the song, taking no other actions, for as long as the bard continues to play and concentrate (up to a maximum of 1 round per bard level). While fascinated, a target takes a -4 penalty on skill checks made as reactions, such as Listen and Spot checks. Any potential threat requires the bard to make another Perform check and allows the creature a new saving throw against a DC equal to the new Perform check result.

Any obvious threat, such as someone drawing a weapon, casting a spell, or aiming a ranged weapon at the target, automatically breaks the effect. Fascinate is an enchantment (compulsion), mind-affecting ability.

Bolding by me...

How do Bard manage to do this combat?

 

[takasi]

Bolding by me...

How do Bard manage to do this combat?

Because we define "combat" as anytime initative is rolled, and many times this is done even if we are standing still with no weapons drawn.

 

[irdeggman]

Because we define "combat" as anytime initative is rolled, and many times this is done even if we are standing still with no weapons drawn.

See I would rule that once the bard starts his attempt to fascinate it is initiative time - and then it is a "combat" situation.

I mean the bard is doing to for what reason? To neutralize an opponent in almost all cases - so why wouldn't the situation described constitute combat?

 

[takasi]

See I would rule that once the bard starts his attempt to fascinate it is initiative time - and then it is a "combat" situation.

I mean the bard is doing to for what reason? To neutralize an opponent in almost all cases - so why wouldn't the situation described constitute combat?

If you say that the mere act of doing a Suggestion or Fascinate is combat in and of itself, then how could anyone EVER use this ability? They could not, because once they do then by your definition they are initiating combat, so it would never, ever work. Right?

I think it's perfectly fair to allow a bard to use Fascinate to parlay with a diplomacy check, to make a Suggestion, or just to stall combat. As a DM I interpret "other dangers" as being movement by an opponent, so if the rest of the party also stands still with weapons sheathed then I think there's nothing mechanically "broken" with allowing a bard to do this. Do you? Regardless of your interpretation of RAW, does anyone really see this as an overpowering ability for what is usually considered an underpowered class?

 

[Mistwell]

I think if the bard wins initiative, or everyone who beats him delays until after his turn or does something non-aggressive, then a bard should be able to fascinate in a dungeon setting.

Combat to me is when someone has taken an actual offensive action against an opponent. Until then, it's just initiative to see how people will react to the situation (which could be diplomacy, running away, doing nothing, casting a healing spell on themselves, or any of a host of non aggressive actions).

Now as for how it would be used, I think that's when you want to avoid combat entirely. So if an owlbear is in a room that you need to get through, but you have no desire (or ability maybe) to defeat the owlbear, and the owlbear isn't physically standing in such a way as to block the exit, you might fascinate the owlbear to allow for the party to pass (and then run after the fascinate ends - unless you suggested they go to sleep or leave the area to find food elsewhere or something).

 

[Doug McCrae]

*deleted*

 

[irdeggman]

If you say that the mere act of doing a Suggestion or Fascinate is combat in and of itself, then how could anyone EVER use this ability? They could not, because once they do then by your definition they are initiating combat, so it would never, ever work. Right?

I'm sorry what I was trying to say was that since you rule that combat starts when you roll initiative (at any time) then the fact that you are using a spell like ability constititues taking an aggressive act (or at least one that may be one). If it can be done in a surprise round situation it should be fine, at least IMO - but since you are already initiative order

Now for comparison when a wizard casts suggestion is that now an initiative situation?

Is that a "threatening act"?

Is the act of casting a spell (when someone can see and hear you) an act that starts the combat round?

All of these question should have the same answer to be a rules-consistent approach.

The bard's fascinate and suggestion are spell-like abilities and not supernatural ones that causes certain characteristics to come into play.

The suggestion ability specifies "as the spell" which surely points to it being handle an awful lot the spell itself.

 

[takasi]

I'm sorry what I was trying to say was that since you rule that combat starts when you roll initiative (at any time) then the fact that you are using a spell like ability constititues taking an aggressive act (or at least one that may be one). If it can be done in a surprise round situation it should be fine, at least IMO - but since you are already initiative order

Spell like abilities, or supernatural abilities like the bard's Fascinate and Suggestion, do not have the verbal or somatic components of a Suggestion spell. An opponent would not detect what is happening, and thus would not have the opportunity to decide if what's happening is hostile act or not.

And I don't see how a surprise round vs. initiative order would make a difference in this case. If no one has provoked an attack, yet the DM makes the call for init, then I don't see why the player should be penalized.

Now for comparison when a wizard casts suggestion is that now an initiative situation?

Certainly, if it has verbal and somatic components.

Is that a "threatening act"?

Yes, because the opponent is aware that a spell is being cast.

Is the act of casting a spell (when someone can see and hear you) an act that starts the combat round?

Yes.

The bard's fascinate and suggestion are spell-like abilities and not supernatural ones that causes certain characteristics to come into play.

The suggestion ability specifies "as the spell" which surely points to it being handle an awful lot the spell itself.

It is very different. You can ready an action to counterspell, or attack someone who is casting a spell. You cannot do the same for a spell-like ability, as there are no spell components. You have no idea if they are trying to fascinate you or not, but everyone knows, at least by raw, when verbal and somatic spell components come into play.

And again, let's say we did agree that Fascinate is, by itself, considered a hostile action that would break a Fascination. When would Fascinate ever work?