Are Classes now a must in an RPG?

[Anthony Terry]

I cannot tell what you are trying to express here. I am not actually sure it relates to classes, so much as to character progression, which can be a separate issue.

You are right that my poor English Comprehension is indeed prventing me from making the point i hope to make. The main 3 points im trying to make are as follows (i feel if i bullet point them it might help clarify, if i write another essay trying to explain ill probably end up confusing the issue further) :-

1. What kind of pace is considered optimal for character progression, i know this is an unbelievably house ruled subject and will variary in nearlly every group but there must a norm, a benchmark that i should be looking at for example in my world currently the equivalent of a 14th level fighter in AD&D, would be a character with 24 talents in my game probably specialized in some kind of fighting style or particular weapon (10 starting, 14 gained) which from our experience works out at roughly half the power level of the AD&D equivalent. Do people feel that some would apreciate this change of pace, and does who dont can just change it, or would such a step from the now established "Rpg Norm" perhaps scare away a larger audience?

2. When purchasing an RPG or setting are set classes still a requirement? Will people be willing to purchase something with just the framework for designing a character concept but suggests none? Or for people to buy into a setting, and feel like their sharing in the same world as everyone else, is some kind of set classes or possible progression tree like in LA a must? - again not stopping DM's from doing what they want, but if the internet has taught me anything its surprising how many people will take the NORM and quote it as law, especially in something that proves popular which i would obviously hope my idea would. - I feel trippy hippy is summarising my concerns perhaps better than i can. the points he makes about easy character generation concern me, as i worry in a time restricted world that RPG's do have to have some of their cousins (computer games) pick up and play element.

3. Whos right? Garry or WOTC? Is a flagship campaign setting a must for any game to be truly successful? People have varying opinions on this and i by no intention mean to rehash the conversation my self but i would suggest that if not for the strength of Greyhawk for example D&D would have never proved so popular, ironic considering Gary himself often implied in his writings (imo) that setting specific material was bad for rpgs.

 

[Anthony Terry]

There are probably more RPGs that do not have classes than do. I suggest you do some research into BRP (Call of Cthulhu, Runequest), GURPS, Hero (Champions), Traveller, Savage Worlds so that you don't end up simply reinventing the wheel.

Unless i'm mistaken your misunderstanding what i mean by classes. For example i am quite certain that Traveller worked more like Path of exile (a computer game) or the sykrim example below as where in every charecter would have a base starting point that they could then progress down set varying trees from there? The class system is still there even if not given a name but i think im answering my own question that in some way it is a requirement.

The point is that these systems still gave you examples and set paths to follow, even if they refused to give them class names to begin with. My hope is that by providing nothing other than the indication of what a talent point is worth is enough, no real example of what that can be spent on as to encourage people to design what ever charecter they dam well want.

The same could also be applied to racial statistics, in my core rulebook id have no intention of providing such things. They belong in a setting supplement imo, where restrictions and norms have to apply because their the restrictions and norms of your game world?

 

[nerfherder]

Unless i'm mistaken your misunderstanding what i mean by classes. For example i am quite certain that Traveller worked more like Path of exile (a computer game) or the sykrim example below as where in every charecter would have a base starting point that they could then progress down set varying trees from there? The class system is still there even if not given a name but i think im answering my own question that in some way it is a requirement.

Traveller (the current version) does indeed have a lifepath system for creating characters. Once play starts, advancement is by training up whichever skills you want, without any "class" restrictions.

My hope is that by providing nothing other than the indication of what a talent point is worth is enough, no real example of what that can be spent on as to encourage people to design what ever charecter they dam well want.

You've just described how Hero and GURPS character creation and advancement work. Like I said, if you are serious about writing and selling a new RPG, I would advise you to read the existing games that already seem to do exactly the same as what you are describing your new game will do.

 

[gamerprinter]

As everyone is stating, classless based RPGs have been around for 20+ years in the form of GURPS, Hero and many other systems. No sense reinventing the wheel, when class systems already exist. Not to say that classless systems don't have an audience, but considering that the mentioned ones have existed for quite a while, yet you seem to have never heard of them, might suggest to you that a classless system is less popular than you think - so reinventing it, might not be a lucrative idea worth pursuing. I have nothing against classless based systems, though I prefer class based systems myself.

 

[Zhaleskra]

1. What kind of pace is considered optimal for character progression, i know this is an unbelievably house ruled subject and will variary in nearlly every group but there must a norm, a benchmark that i should be looking at for example in my world currently the equivalent of a 14th level fighter in AD&D, would be a character with 24 talents in my game probably specialized in some kind of fighting style or particular weapon (10 starting, 14 gained) which from our experience works out at roughly half the power level of the AD&D equivalent. Do people feel that some would apreciate this change of pace, and does who dont can just change it, or would such a step from the now established "Rpg Norm" perhaps scare away a larger audience?

Answer part 1: Highly subjective, each person has a different idea of what they consider optimal character progression. Part 2: Are you using "talents" to mean "Ranks in a skill"? Because that's what it looks like to me. In my mind, character levels are hardly a useful concept: if you want to say somebody's had years of experience or is highly skilled in a thing, just say it.

2. When purchasing an RPG or setting are set classes still a requirement? Will people be willing to purchase something with just the framework for designing a character concept but suggests none? <snip>

Depends on Player pool.

3. Whos right? Garry or WOTC?

From a player's perspective, a game's success has nothing to do with its sales numbers.

 

[Anthony Terry]

Traveller (the current version) does indeed have a lifepath system for creating characters. Once play starts, advancement is by training up whichever skills you want, without any "class" restrictions.


You've just described how Hero and GURPS character creation and advancement work. Like I said, if you are serious about writing and selling a new RPG, I would advise you to read the existing games that already seem to do exactly the same as what you are describing your new game will do.

I Will indeed, that plus signing up for a creative writing class to help with some of my comprehension issues have been my first steps since becoming remotley serious about the idea. Very unfamilar with GURPS currently, i fear my RPGing carear apart from traveller and some Call of Cuthulu is very restricted to D&D and its various clones. Thank you for taking the time to reply and pointing this out btw, half my reason for asking here in the first place is sadly a belief that it was unlikely i was reinventing the wheel.

 

[Anthony Terry]

Answer part 1: Highly subjective, each person has a different idea of what they consider optimal character progression. Part 2: Are you using "talents" to mean "Ranks in a skill"? Because that's what it looks like to me. In my mind, character levels are hardly a useful concept: if you want to say somebody's had years of experience or is highly skilled in a thing, just say it.



Depends on Player pool.



From a player's perspective, a game's success has nothing to do with its sales numbers.

A Talent is meant to range from say being an accomplished potter, all the way to arcane spell casting or divine healing. Their just meant to provide a scale that in theory can be assigned to anything to ensure that, in what is after all still a game, there is a sense of "character balance" but without the combat focus i dont appreciate in some genre.

The other thing to note is that the game would never require a talent for an action, say like some feats in 3.5 would suggest e.g multi shot and is incredibly rare, for example spell casting talents, that a talent will allow your character to do something new or restrict it from doing something else. As i said just a representative scale of what i would suggest is realistic a individual who had experienced that much in life could know. The obvious caveat of this being that experience in my games has never been fully associated with combat, if at all, as i dont remember the last studious scientist that qualified for his masters by burning his high school bully with the new acidic element he just invented in bio-chem. So why would a wizards experience be tied so if his new spell he was perfecting was say charm person? - a silly notion to get obsessed with perhaps?

 

[Anthony Terry]

As everyone is stating, classless based RPGs have been around for 20+ years in the form of GURPS, Hero and many other systems. No sense reinventing the wheel, when class systems already exist. Not to say that classless systems don't have an audience, but considering that the mentioned ones have existed for quite a while, yet you seem to have never heard of them, might suggest to you that a classless system is less popular than you think - so reinventing it, might not be a lucrative idea worth pursuing. I have nothing against classless based systems, though I prefer class based systems myself.

I have heard of most rpgs as mentioned above mainly due to lurking these boards amongst others since probably early 2006 (not that impressive by most standards but at 22 i deserve some slack) but sadly for a lot of reasons, mainly i think my huge attachment to greyhawk in particular, have always just chosen to house rule D&D further and further into my own creation opposed to seeking a genre that would have more adeptly suited the purpose to begin with + my actual play time for RPG's is very limited and non reliant, i am one of the lucky who gets to fantasise about his fantasy opposed to playing it far to much

 

[nerfherder]

I Will indeed, that plus signing up for a creative writing class to help with some of my comprehension issues have been my first steps since becoming remotley serious about the idea. Very unfamilar with GURPS currently, i fear my RPGing carear apart from traveller and some Call of Cuthulu is very restricted to D&D and its various clones. Thank you for taking the time to reply and pointing this out btw, half my reason for asking here in the first place is sadly a belief that it was unlikely i was reinventing the wheel.

You're welcome - I'm glad I've been of help

 

[Megaton Games]

I think classes are good to control and guide players when they make new characters. It could also give a lot of setting flavour to the character. However I feel that a well designed game should have the ability to make class-less characters. My own game QuestCore is designed that way; both classes and the option to design the character from scratch.


(short info on the games: http://www.enworld.org/forum/showth...Core-RPG-GENERIC-SYSTEM&p=6488029#post6488029)