Are demons/devils/dragons too complex?

[delericho]

I think dragons are time consuming to create, but, only about 1/2 an hour to an hour.

'Only' half an hour for a creature that is going to last about 6 rounds seems like an awfully long time, especially when that's just for the creature itself, and not the encounter area, terrain effects, and the rest of the adventure.

That those 6 rounds take 4 hours to resolve can be considered some mitigation... except that that's another problem with the system as it stands - no combat round should take 40 minutes to resolve.

 

[Derren]

Klaus

"Mind Flayers have Charm Monster": Yes, but that doesn't make the target a slave. It still wants to lead an good live. A mind flayer society which is presented in the novels/lore is not possible with Charm spells.

"Example natural hazards". All those "natural traps" require the active participation of the dragon or are extremely unlogical. Also non of them will alert the dragon of intruding adventurers nor stop serious adventurers. Not to mention that dragons without spellcasting are completely defenseless against scrying and teleportation which makes all those traps useless. How to kill a non spellcasting dragon ofold age? Scry it till it sleeps then teleport in buffed and CdG/kill it.

"Village Contacting dragon": As others have said, dragons have a fear aura. A Pigeon certainly won't go anywhere near it. And all other methods require the dragon to have line of sight to the village and to actively look for those signs which leaves little time to do anything else.

"Necklace of lesser races": That item does not exist. Also where would this (and pretty much all other dragons) get this item from?

Pants

"limited SLAs" That still makes the dragon very predictable and removes a lot of options from teh dragon.

"No one has time": When you do not have the time to spend half an hour to stat an monster which will keep the PCs occupied for at least a whole evening then I seriously doubt that you have any time to actually play D&D.

"Classical dragons": Thats also a common argument from the "Dragons should not have spellcasting" crowd so I included it. But it is pretty OT as this thread is about the complexity of creatures not about their mythological accuracy.

"minions": You need a wizard minions and a cleric minions probably near the same level as the PCs. And as planning for them is much harder than for an unmagical dragon they are the real encounter and not the dragon. Dragons are supposed to be big encounters so it is expected that the PCs prepare for it. And without spellcasting the only thing what you have to prepare for are melee attacks and a specific energy. When this is covered then the dragon combat will be easy and a big letdown as the dragon can't do anything unexpected.

"dumb brute": What I mean with "dumb brute" are monsters which are unable to do anything else than combat. The Mind Flayers are on the border for this as their Charm Monster ability does give them a little non combat ability but as already mentioned not to the extend that they could actually do what the lore says they do.
The Balor on the other hand is a pure combat brute. All its abilities resolve around combat and it isn't really able to do much than direct combat. Also as it has fixed abilities the players will sooner or later develop the perfect tactic against Balors which makes encounters with them very undramatic.

"More minions" with so many minions which have to do things for the dragon you could say that the minions are the encounter and the dragon is just a big guard dog.

"Dragons are smart" Yes they are, but thinking of something and doing something are two different things and dragons simply can't do the latter one most of the time except with magic.

"Dragons not Fear inspiring": The "No" in that sentence was meant only for the humanoid part. I se fear inspiring as a disadvantage when trying to interact peacfully with other races which is required when the dragons wants to get a certain magical items. Not every dragon is a great wyrm and casters who can craft useful magical items tend to be not intimidated easily as they can always teleport away or live in cities which can defend itself against most dragons.

 

[Jhaelen]

Klaus

"Mind Flayers have Charm Monster": Yes, but that doesn't make the target a slave. It still wants to lead an good live. A mind flayer society which is presented in the novels/lore is not possible with Charm spells.

Actually, I think using mind-flayers without using psionic rules doesn't make much sense. Mindflayers are probably _THE_ archetypal psionic monster. Their spell-like abilities in MM1 aren't much more than a placeholder, imho.

So just use the psionic mind-flayer and have fun with your psionic dominate

P.S.: Even if standard mind-flayers didn't have access to dominate, there's still no problem for them to have a society based on dominated slaves. It doesn't take much more than a couple of dedicated slavers with class levels. Not every individual mind flayer needs to have the power to actually dominate.

 

[Derren]

Actually, I think using mind-flayers without using psionic rules doesn't make much sense. Mindflayers are probably _THE_ archetypal psionic monster. Their spell-like abilities in MM1 aren't much more than a placeholder, imho.

The same would in m opinion apply to dragons with SLAs instead of spellcasting.

 

[John Q. Mayhem]

I think that they're too complicated, although 3.5 toned that down for demons and devils. I know that I never used them because of all the fiddly special abilities and spell-likes.

 

[Midknightsun]

I agree with the overcomplicatedness of some of these critters, and would like to see spellcasting reduced to spell like abilities, or supernatural abilities.

As far as scry and die on the dragons, I can't even be sure that's going to be a possibility in 4e, along with several other things that were "game breaking" in 3e, but lets just assume. . . and then assume the designers probably thought of this.

What would dragons have to compensate?

Supernatural senses that virtually eliminate surprise, even while "sleeping" (maybe they don't sleep often, or only very lightly--heck, if elves can do it. . . .) even from a tp? Thus, eliminating any chance of "getting the jump" on them. Senses that allow them to see through ilusions? Not out of the question. Plus the thing gets a +5 on its save (against scry) unless you've met it in person, and its spell resistance applies against the scrying. . . . first failed attempt and it'll know something is up. . . . then the minions do some recon and have at least a day before you can try again.


High resistance to magic, making spellcaster kills questionable at best, maybe making scying attempts nearly futile? . . . and also adds to the ability to press spellcasters into service. (Just boost SR to compensate for spell loss)

Lairing in an environment hostile to PCs is also probable and useful.

Ritual magics that, while taking longer, don't clog up combat but allow them to do some nifty things outside of it? Sounds reasonable.

Personally, though, I like the idea of dragons being creatures "of" magic, and not a creature that casts spells. They should, IMHO, all but radiate eldritch power to the point where magic is overall less effective to trifling to them, depending on the spellcaster's power, while having "magical" but not necessarily "spell" abilities themselves.

Of course, it be possible to tack caster levels on if you really wanted, but there are other ways of making dragons tough than just by adding caster abilities.

And again, some are taking 3e milestones and applying them to 4e. from what I understand, though, spellcasting is going to be nerfed a bit, so scrying and dying may not even be a viable option.

 

[Pants]

"limited SLAs" That still makes the dragon very predictable and removes a lot of options from teh dragon.

Okay, in your experience, how many spells does a dragon cast in combat? Alternatively, how many rounds does a dragon typically last for you?

I'm really of the opinion that dragons don't need a massive list of spells to refer to because, really, dragons already can do a lot. They have a multitude of natural attacks, a breath weapon, and a frightful presence. Just how often do dragons twiddle their claws in combat?

IME, most spellcasting a dragon does is buffing and/or preparing for a fight BEFORE it starts. Scry maybe, resist energy, mage armor, MAYBE another spell, but generally that's it. Dragons usually have potent enough defenses that they don't need a truckload of spells to stay relevant as opposed to the level 20 wizard who needs a country's treasury full of magic and a bullet-list of 'spells to cast so that I don't die when the fighter breathes near me' to remain a threat.

When you do not have the time to spend half an hour to stat an monster which will keep the PCs occupied for at least a whole evening then I seriously doubt that you have any time to actually play D&D.

That's not very fair at all.
D&D is already a complex enough game to run, why make it moreso for those folks who don't have the time to spend on that, or who'd rather spend that time drawing maps or plotting campaigns? Not everyone enjoys 30 minutes devoted to statting things up.

Thats also a common argument from the "Dragons should not have spellcasting" crowd so I included it. But it is pretty OT as this thread is about the complexity of creatures not about their mythological accuracy.

I really could care less about what 'classical' dragons do.

Dragons are supposed to be big encounters so it is expected that the PCs prepare for it.

OT, but that was one of the single biggest complaints about dragons at EW after 3.0 came out, the undervalued CR's because designers assumed that players would 'always' be prepared to fight a dragon.

And without spellcasting the only thing what you have to prepare for are melee attacks and a specific energy. When this is covered then the dragon combat will be easy and a big letdown as the dragon can't do anything unexpected.

Okay, I can agree with this. Dragons are such iconic monsters that players can over-prepare for encounters with them and when dragons have vulnerabilities to certain energies, then yes that CAN make the encounter anti-climactic.

I am, admittedly, NOT a fan of a dragon flinging fireballs or lightning bolts at adventurers. That does not fit my idea of what makes a dragon a dragon.

What I mean with "dumb brute" are monsters which are unable to do anything else than combat. The Mind Flayers are on the border for this as their Charm Monster ability does give them a little non combat ability but as already mentioned not to the extend that they could actually do what the lore says they do.

Does this mean a human rogue who leads a criminal guild has no non-combat abilities because he can't cast spells?

The Balor on the other hand is a pure combat brute. All its abilities resolve around combat and it isn't really able to do much than direct combat.

Balor: Bluff +31, Diplomacy +35, Intimidate +33, Knowledge (any two) +30, Sense Motive +30, Spellcraft +30 (+32 scrolls), Use Magic Device +31 (+33 scrolls)

Pit Fiend: Bluff +29, Diplomacy +10, Disguise +29 (+31 acting), Intimidate +31, Knowledge (arcana) +29, Knowledge (nature) +10, Knowledge (the planes) +29, Knowledge (religion) +29, Spellcraft +31
SLA: At will - create undead

'Most' of their abilities revolve around combat, but those hefty skill modifiers mean that balors/pit fiends can lie, intimidate, or even talk their way out of confrontations with relative ease. I'd definitely call those 'non-combat' abilities.

Also as it has fixed abilities the players will sooner or later develop the perfect tactic against Balors which makes encounters with them very undramatic.

What, are players fighting balors and pit fiends every week? Are they reading the MM and planning from there? My players barely remember what's a demon and what's a devil let-alone what they can do.

"More minions" with so many minions which have to do things for the dragon you could say that the minions are the encounter and the dragon is just a big guard dog.

A big guard dog with an Intellect more massive than any of them.

Seriously, for minions, to make its lair defensible, all a dragon needs are some kobolds. Hell bonus to Craft (traps)! Minions don't need to be a roadblock for players, I've thrown plenty of weak encounters at my players because A) it makes sense for them to exist and B) it allows the players to strut their stuff.

Players love a chance to shine and if they plow through some kobolds and bungle through a few traps before hitting the meat of the encounter, so much the better.

Yes they are, but thinking of something and doing something are two different things and dragons simply can't do the latter one most of the time except with magic.

A dragon is smart enough to find a way to do something. A dragon has a higher Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma that it can potentially think its way out of any given situation.

Granted a dragon is only so good as it's DM, but when you're dealing with a creature of such massive intellect, I think it's okay to fudge and say the dragon thought of such-and-such years ago.

I se fear inspiring as a disadvantage when trying to interact peacfully with other races which is required when the dragons wants to get a certain magical items.

AFAIR, dragons only inspire fear when attacking.

Not every dragon is a great wyrm and casters who can craft useful magical items tend to be not intimidated easily as they can always teleport away or live in cities which can defend itself against most dragons.

1. Dragon promises power and wealth to evil spellcaster
2. ....
3. Profit!

 

[Pants]

Ritual magics that, while taking longer, don't clog up combat but allow them to do some nifty things outside of it? Sounds reasonable.

Bingo, this is EXACTLY what I'm advocating (in a 4e sense).

 

[Derren]

Okay, in your experience, how many spells does a dragon cast in combat? Alternatively, how many rounds does a dragon typically last for you?

Quite a lot as I normally don't do direct combat till death but hit and run tactics with healing in between, waiting till the buffs of the party run out, ambushes etc.

I'm really of the opinion that dragons don't need a massive list of spells to refer to because, really, dragons already can do a lot. They have a multitude of natural attacks, a breath weapon, and a frightful presence. Just how often do dragons twiddle their claws in combat?

That is not a lot. Natural attacks, even many of them, is nothing special. A breath Weapon is powerful but every adventure group will protect themselves against it anyway (and knowing WotC any combat SLA will use the same energy so they will also be useless) and the effect of Frightful Presence is too small (just a -2).

IME, most spellcasting a dragon does is buffing and/or preparing for a fight BEFORE it starts. Scry maybe, resist energy, mage armor, MAYBE another spell, but generally that's it. Dragons usually have potent enough defenses that they don't need a truckload of spells to stay relevant as opposed to the level 20 wizard who needs a country's treasury full of magic and a bullet-list of 'spells to cast so that I don't die when the fighter breathes near me' to remain a threat.

A high level wizard can kill a dragon, especially one with an elemental vulnerability, which doesn't use magic quite fast. Alternatively the wizard simply uses battlefield control spells to prevent the dragon from doing anything (very easy when there is no counter spellcaster). Also a dragon without spellcasting has a big problem with attrition as it can't heal itself.

So you have the pre combat buffs, you have the combat spells (Dispell Magic, many things from teh Draconomicon like the spell that changes the breath weapon), you have the past combat spells like healing and you have the misc spells which make up the biggest group of spells like scrying, sending, alarm, mage hand, teleport, etc.

That's not very fair at all.
D&D is already a complex enough game to run, why make it moreso for those folks who don't have the time to spend on that, or who'd rather spend that time drawing maps or plotting campaigns? Not everyone enjoys 30 minutes devoted to statting things up.

30 Minutes for a monster which will keep the players occupied for a whole session. Thats not really a bad tradeof.
But I simply can't understand this argument. For me D&D isn't all that complex once you understood the rules and statting a dragon or other NPC doesn't take that long. The most time consuming thing is looking through all splatbooks to find things for your NPC/Monster and the easy solution to that is to reduce the number of splatbooks you use.

Okay, I can agree with this. Dragons are such iconic monsters that players can over-prepare for encounters with them and when dragons have vulnerabilities to certain energies, then yes that CAN make the encounter anti-climactic.

That or catching the dragon with wall spells/forcecage, using archers and greater invisibility (just stay farer than 60 ft away) etc. Without the monsters having magic it is very easy to kill it at higher level without much problem.
Look at the Tarrasque. It is a joke because of its limitations even with its awesome defenses. When dragons loose spellcasting they become like the Tarrasque with a few less limitations but also with a lot less potent defenses.

I am, admittedly, NOT a fan of a dragon flinging fireballs or lightning bolts at adventurers. That does not fit my idea of what makes a dragon a dragon.

Then don't give your dragons direct attack spells.

Does this mean a human rogue who leads a criminal guild has no non-combat abilities because he can't cast spells?

Can you imagine a dragon leading a thief guild? Not without any alter form ability.
Humans and PHB races have the advantage that they live in a society where they can move freely. Dragons and many other monsters are solitary and attract too much attention. They can't simply walk through the streets at day. To interact with other races in any other way than combat they need magic to hide their true identity.

Balor: Bluff +31, Diplomacy +35, Intimidate +33, Knowledge (any two) +30, Sense Motive +30, Spellcraft +30 (+32 scrolls), Use Magic Device +31 (+33 scrolls)

Pit Fiend: Bluff +29, Diplomacy +10, Disguise +29 (+31 acting), Intimidate +31, Knowledge (arcana) +29, Knowledge (nature) +10, Knowledge (the planes) +29, Knowledge (religion) +29, Spellcraft +31
SLA: At will - create undead

'Most' of their abilities revolve around combat, but those hefty skill modifiers mean that balors/pit fiends can lie, intimidate, or even talk their way out of confrontations with relative ease. I'd definitely call those 'non-combat' abilities.

Except that non of their skills really matter because without shapechanging/illusions they can't use those skills on normal humans as they won't listen. The humans either run or attack. So there is no real way that those devils/demons can interact with most other races in any other way than combat.

What, are players fighting balors and pit fiends every week? Are they reading the MM and planning from there? My players barely remember what's a demon and what's a devil let-alone what they can do.

Your players maybe, there are more players than just your group. And many players also DM or have DMed in the past so they have a reason to look into the books.

A big guard dog with an Intellect more massive than any of them.

But without the ability to do much things. This guard dog relies on its minions to affect the otside world except with combat and intimidation.
Lair defense -> Minion
Scrying -> minion
Buffing -> Minion
Healing -> Minion
Diplomacy -> Minion
and so on.

Seriously, for minions, to make its lair defensible, all a dragon needs are some kobolds. Hell bonus to Craft (traps)! Minions don't need to be a roadblock for players, I've thrown plenty of weak encounters at my players because A) it makes sense for them to exist and B) it allows the players to strut their stuff.

Players love a chance to shine and if they plow through some kobolds and bungle through a few traps before hitting the meat of the encounter, so much the better.

Some mechanical traps and a few kobolds are no serious lair defense against higer level parties. Scry, wait till the dragon sleeps, teleport, CdG. Without magical counters this tactic is unstoppable.

A dragon is smart enough to find a way to do something. A dragon has a higher Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma that it can potentially think its way out of any given situation.

Granted a dragon is only so good as it's DM, but when you're dealing with a creature of such massive intellect, I think it's okay to fudge and say the dragon thought of such-and-such years ago.

So the solution is to give the monster everything with the explanation that it is "intelligent enough to think of a way to get it". Thats exactly what I don't want. I don't want to have to give monsters arbitrary things just to make them useable except as combat brutes. I want defined abilities what a monster can do in and out of the combat. I can still houerule if I really want Monster x to have thing Y. But when I DM I try to make my adventures within the rules of the game and this doesn't include throwing arbitrary abilities around.

1. Dragon promises power and wealth to evil spellcaster
2. ....
3. Profit!

So either a lot of wizards are now really wealthy or powerful or they know by now not to trust dragons.
And how would the dragon make this offer to the wizard? Fly to his tower and knock on his door?

 

[Nifft]

When I make high-level monsters, I tend to give each of them three or four big tricks that they like to pull. Might be spell combos (buffs), might be SLAs, might be just a focus on melee, ranged attacks, or a special attack like a breath weapon.

The monster then can cast a bunch of other spells, but it hardly ever does so -- it's got its routine down, for which it has been optimized with feats, class levels, and templates (if applicable). One of those tricks is usually an escape method, because I like re-using NPCs and monsters.

The time invested is usually too much, but it's time that I enjoy spending -- mostly. As the PCs have gotten higher level, the work required for the same payoff is increasing. And it's less enjoyable, because making one change can have huge obnoxious ripples throughout the critter's stat block.

Cheers, -- N