Are demons/devils/dragons too complex?

[HeavenShallBurn]

Immortals Handbook, appendix v5.

It's what I use both for judging altered monsters and creating new races or monsters. Base everything on CR rather than level including encounters, making sure each individual element of the party has opposition appropriate for their CR.

 

[Jhaelen]

So every older dragon will have to put up "Spellcaster Wanted" signs out of his lair to be really competitive. Thats also not really a "classical" dragon isn't it?

But why not turn your argument around? When a dragon absolutely has to lack any form of spellcasting there are many ways to achieve that. Why remove spellcasting from every dragon especially when it is so handy and even essential for BBEG style monsters.

Well, what's a 'classical' dragon, anyway? I'd argue that most dragons in literature and fiction are pretty much dumb brutes. There are stories about intelligent dragons but even those rarely include magic-using dragons. I guess, this is pretty much a D&D thing.

Regarding your second point, as others have already mentioned, at least in 3E it's always easier to add powers to a monster than to remove them.


But it's quite obvious you're a huge fan of a certain representation of dragons, so there's very probably no chance to convince you of the benefits of simplifying/streamlining dragons. I know that I'd be pretty offended if they removed powers from my favorite creatures that I consider to be essential to their nature

 

[Derren]

Unless magic is nerfed big time in 4E magic is essential for every high level BBEG, especially when the BBEG can't simply walk into a city and buy what he needs.

Of course if you are one of those DM who simply gives the BBEG everything he needs without explanation then this is not a problem.
I on the other hand want an in game explanation of why the lair is so defensible it is, how all the traps got in there and how the dragon commands all its agents in various cities. Without spellcasting dragons can only be played as dumb brutes as they lack the tools for doing something else.

And the classical D&D dragons are intelligent and spellcasting. They always were (some more and some less) but they were never simply dumb brutes sitting in a natural cave doing nothing.

 

[Pants]

Unless magic is nerfed big time in 4E magic is essential for every high level BBEG, especially when the BBEG can't simply walk into a city and buy what he needs.

I agree that magic is essential for high level D&D, but I don't think spellcasting is required. Magical effects can be created other ways, via items, spell-like abilities (I think I've said this one before), and even some feats.

So yes, in 3.x, dragons SHOULD have magic, but they shouldn't necessarily require spellcasting to stay viable threats. And having spellcasting adds a whole new workload for a DM already dealing with a complicated monster.

why the lair is so defensible it is,

Minions

how all the traps got in there

Minions

d how the dragon commands all its agents in various cities.

It's a frakking dragon.

Fear and promise of power.

Without spellcasting dragons can only be played as dumb brutes as they lack the tools for doing something else.

Are balors dumb brutes? Are pit fiends dumb brutes? Are most demon lords dumb brutes? Are beholders dumb brutes? Are mind flayers dumb brutes? Are aboleths dumb brutes? These are all creatures without spellcasting, though they all have SLA's. Are they all dumb brutes because they have no natural spellcasting ability?

And the classical D&D dragons are intelligent and spellcasting. They always were (some more and some less) but they were never simply dumb brutes sitting in a natural cave doing nothing.

Removing spellcasting does not automatically make them dumb brutes. Please show me somewhere in the MM or Draconomicon where it says that Dragons automatically drop to Int 1 if they lose their spellcasting.

 

[Derren]

I agree that magic is essential for high level D&D, but I don't think spellcasting is required. Magical effects can be created other ways, via items, spell-like abilities (I think I've said this one before), and even some feats.

Except that to cover all things spellcasting gives you need dozends of SLA and magic items have the tendency to fall into the PCs hands after the fight.

So yes, in 3.x, dragons SHOULD have magic, but they shouldn't necessarily require spellcasting to stay viable threats. And having spellcasting adds a whole new workload for a DM already dealing with a complicated monster.

And inventing SLAs and balancingthe required magical items with the wealth guidlines for the PCs isn't complicated?
And you don't stat a dragon that often. Not everything must be so simple that you can run it out of the book. When you don't even want to spend 20 minutes to prepare such an battle then you are better off to play a freeform RPG with no rules at all.

Minions x2

Ohh, how many classical dragons have minions....
None. And it probably adds a lot of atmosphere when the big dragon has to rely on his minions for everything. You, wizard minion. Scry those adventurers for me. You cleric minion, summon me an elemental...
That way the minions will be the real encounter, not the dragon.

It's a frakking dragon.

Fear and promise of power.

The question was more somthing like "Howdoes the dragon contact and give orders to his minions"? Sending carrier pigeons?

Are balors dumb brutes? Are pit fiends dumb brutes? Are most demon lords dumb brutes? Are beholders dumb brutes? Are mind flayers dumb brutes? Are aboleths dumb brutes? These are all creatures without spellcasting, though they all have SLA's. Are they all dumb brutes because they have no natural spellcasting ability?

Yes they are. All of those monsters are incapable to do anything else than pure melee. A Balor simply can't do much intrigue (although his teleportation helps) or build a defensive lair etc. He can only appear and attack. Thats all.
Even the Mind Flayers are dumb brutes by the rules because they lack any ability to actually enslave creatures so all this lore about Mind Flayers empires etc. is nice fiction but not possible by the rules. They can only levitate, stun people and eat their brains. And they are a viable encounter on the Astral Plane. But building an empire founded on dominated slaves? No.
To their defense, most of those monsters are able to handle tools and are not solitary which means they live in a society which can build something together. Dragons can't do this. They live most of the time alone and are unable to handle most traditional tools.

Removing spellcasting does not automatically make them dumb brutes. Please show me somewhere in the MM or Draconomicon where it says that Dragons automatically drop to Int 1 if they lose their spellcasting.

Without the correct tools you can have an Int as high as you want, you simply can't do much.
Dragons are especially "worse" in that way. They are not humanoid, fear inspiring, can't hide/sneak and their claws are even unable to hold any tools. Magic is the only way for them to do something productive. Without it they can only sit in a cave and wait for adventurers to come or raid villages. And if they have minions they can only hope that the minions don't realize that they are actually running the show and not the dragon.

 

[Imp]

I would propose that "the new dragon" not cast spells, but instead warp spells around it with its very presence. How this would be implemented is hard to say offhand, but there you go, big dent in the magical advantage. SR on steroids.

 

[VirgilCaine]

Even the Mind Flayers are dumb brutes by the rules because they lack any ability to actually enslave creatures so all this lore about Mind Flayers empires etc. is nice fiction but not possible by the rules. They can only levitate, stun people and eat their brains. And they are a viable encounter on the Astral Plane. But building an empire founded on dominated slaves? No.

This is the only bit of your whole very good, impressive defense of dragon spellcasting I want to quibble with.

I don't have a 3.5 MM, but don't Mind Flayers still have Charm Monster at will in 3.5, like they did in 3.0?

 

[Aus_Snow]

I would propose that "the new dragon" not cast spells, but instead warp spells around it with its very presence. How this would be implemented is hard to say offhand, but there you go, big dent in the magical advantage. SR on steroids.

I already give dragons enough magic-like (and mind) powers, plus stats and defences through the roof in almost every area, but I really like this one (though as an 'and' not an 'or' for my tastes.)

I do believe my dragons will be getting some new toys to play with.

 

[Derren]

This is the only bit of your whole very good, impressive defense of dragon spellcasting I want to quibble with.

I don't have a 3.5 MM, but don't Mind Flayers still have Charm Monster at will in 3.5, like they did in 3.0?

I don't know as they are not in the SRD but considering what charm means you can't enslave someone with Charm Monster as this only mean that the target creature thinks of you as good friend.
The mind flayers would need something like the enslave ability form the Aboleths, but even this ability is imo not enough for a big slave empire because of the low DCs and the daily saving throws.

 

[Hussar]

Dragons without spellcasting are unable to defend themselves against many things adventurers can do. Without spellcasting dragons can't seal their lair against scrying and teleportation, can't prepare their defenses to counteract the PCs plan, can't scry on the party or otherwise detect where they are (alarm spells). They also can't shape their lair into a defensible fortress but have to rely on natural caves instead and are unable to do any form of intrigue because without illusions, polymorph or messaging spells they can't intaract with other creatures without revealing their identity.
And when the adventurers prepared themselves, for example with the appropriate energy protection dragons are hosed as they can neither dispel them or use a different energy to attack them. And when they are loosing they can't flee their lair because they lack teleportation spells so they are trapped.

As you see without spellcasting dragons are much weaker than in 3.X unless you simply say they can do all the above mentioned out of combat things without explanation which is in my opinion extremely lame.

When I read about all the defenses that you are talking about Derren, all I can think about is, "Gee, when did I sign on to fight a lich?" Uber powerful wizard is the lich, not the dragon. I want the dragon to stand on his own, not simply be a really big lich.

I don't know as they are not in the SRD but considering what charm means you can't enslave someone with Charm Monster as this only mean that the target creature thinks of you as good friend.

Charm monster goes a bit further than that. From the SRD:

The spell does not enable you to control the charmed person as if it were an automaton, but it perceives your words and actions in the most favorable way. You can try to give the subject orders, but you must win an opposed Charisma check to convince it to do anything it wouldn’t ordinarily do.

Mind Flayers start with a base 17 Cha. That's for the weakest mind flayer out there. Bumping that through the roof wouldn't be all that difficult. Now, it's not that hard to think of a mind flayer empire.