Are demons/devils/dragons too complex?

[Pants]

A dragon using Born of the Three Thunders Permanenced Walls of Fire (to stop teleporting, as well as to screw up enemies) as walls in it's Phase-Door-access-Disentegrated-out-of-a-mountain lair is a far cry from a few SLAs.

And you got this from my post.... how?

 

[CruelSummerLord]

Maybe, with dragons, we need to borrow a leaf from 1E.

In 1E, not every dragon automatically had the ability to assume human form, to cast spells, or to even talk. Every dragon had a percentage chance of being able to talk, or to cast magic. Ever since Dragonlance, that setting's image of dragons as being all-powerul, uber-monsters has spread to the game in general-all dragons have powerful intellects, the ability to polymorph, inherent magical powers, etc.

If a dragon can't cast spells, and can't even talk, doesn't that dragon immediately become easier to use?

And as far as using spell-like abilities, let's remember what we're dealing with...

-Demons are constantly being depicted as bored with their eternal existence, only taking pleasure in tormenting the creatures of the material plane. Where's the fun in simply blasting them out of existence? Why hit them with a death spell when you can hit them with a symbol of hopelessness or pain instead, leaving them crippled and at a disadvantage, slowly killing them and making them fear you, especially when you're essentially an epitome of evil? Mariliths, for example, might take particular pleasure in grappling enemies with their tails, slowly crushing them to death as they simultaneously channel their cause serious wounds ability at the same time for maximum pain, even as they use their swords to take on other enemies.

Instant death=no fun. Slow, painful, agonizing murder=good times.

-Dragons, especially evil ones, love terrifying people. They might exult in their power, and take pleasure in watching the PCs run in terror, before ripping them apart with fang and claw, before taking their wealth back to the lair? Besides which, any wealth or magic they might have could be destroyed by that massive blast of fire or lightning, or the fireworks of the spells they cast.

Dragons might take a perverse pleasure in letting their legends spread, and for making people who live hundreds of miles away shudder at the mention of their names. It might appeal to their ego to have would-be heroes and treasure hunters come trying to slay them, before ending up on the dragon's trophy wall.

Now, with all this in mind, if the dragons or demons realize they're facing sterner opposition than they expected, then by all means have them use their most powerful abilities. And if they know exactly who they're facing, fun times are over and no more Mr. Nice Dragon or Mrs. Nice Marilith. Experienced monsters will know when to indulge their tastes for sadism and when to play rough.

And, of course, both kinds of monsters can be masters of subtlety. Just don't forget that they, like all kinds of BBEGs, don't necessarily have to operate in secret or subtlety, or be hidden masters behind some grand plot.

 

[Derren]

As for Dragons:
Deemphasize the spellcasting and I think dragons will be much easier opponents. Grant them a couple of SLA's chosen from a list or something and that'll make them magical enough that most parties probably won't know the difference.

And much more boring BBEGs. No specifically tailored lairs. They have to use natural caves instead, no traps or magical alarms (perfect for CdGing sleeping dragons), no way to escape from magical traps/ambushes, no way to heal themselves, no way to cancel the enemies magical defenses, no way to bypass them (Use a lot of fire protection and the majority of a red dragons SLAs and attack options is useless. And there is nothing the red dragon can do against that), no way to spy on the PCs, no way to interact with PHB races without being recognized, no way to direct minions unless you are in direct contact with them.

Without spellcasting dragons loose so much utility that the are nearly unusable as BBEG except "Dragon burnd down village" type BBEGs. Just because some DMs are so lazy that they don't want to prepare such iconic monsters (which are hardly encountered very often) for their sessions anymore I don't want to miss all the option spellcasting gives to dragons. Without them dragons as solitary creatures have nearly no way to actually do anything except sitting in their cave and waiting for th PCs to come to it. And if they do they will have a big disadvantage.

And, of course, both kinds of monsters can be masters of subtlety. Just don't forget that they, like all kinds of BBEGs, don't necessarily have to operate in secret or subtlety, or be hidden masters behind some grand plot.

Without magic this is something dragons can not do.

 

[IceFractal]

For dragons in particular, I don't see much of a need for them to be spellcasting in combat, but they might need spellcasting at other times. So why not make this official? Ditch the spellcasting (which was weak for their level anyway), and give them "Draconic Rituals".

This would basically be a sidebar to the main monster entry, that specifies what level of effects a dragon of a given age can create through rituals. And these rituals would have a "casting" time such that they weren't a factor in combat. So dragons could do things like warding their lairs and disguising themselves in human form, without being spellcasters in battle. Leave in the potential for greater effects via multiple dragon participants and you've got your ancient magic artifacts covered as well.

And if you do want a more "brute-force" dragon, simply leave off the rituals - no need to adjust its stats.

 

[Pants]

And much more boring BBEGs. No specifically tailored lairs. They have to use natural caves instead, no traps or magical alarms (perfect for CdGing sleeping dragons), no way to escape from magical traps/ambushes, no way to heal themselves, no way to cancel the enemies magical defenses, no way to bypass them (Use a lot of fire protection and the majority of a red dragons SLAs and attack options is useless. And there is nothing the red dragon can do against that), no way to spy on the PCs, no way to interact with PHB races without being recognized, no way to direct minions unless you are in direct contact with them.

This is, of course, assuming that dragons loose their spellcasting without being redesigned from the ground up.

Without spellcasting dragons loose so much utility that the are nearly unusable as BBEG except "Dragon burnd down village" type BBEGs. Just because some DMs are so lazy that they don't want to prepare such iconic monsters (which are hardly encountered very often) for their sessions anymore I don't want to miss all the option spellcasting gives to dragons. Without them dragons as solitary creatures have nearly no way to actually do anything except sitting in their cave and waiting for th PCs to come to it. And if they do they will have a big disadvantage.



Without magic this is something dragons can not do.

So... you're advocating that... without magic, dragons simply become Int 1 creatures?

 

[CruelSummerLord]

And much more boring BBEGs. No specifically tailored lairs. They have to use natural caves instead, no traps or magical alarms (perfect for CdGing sleeping dragons), no way to escape from magical traps/ambushes, no way to heal themselves, no way to cancel the enemies magical defenses, no way to bypass them (Use a lot of fire protection and the majority of a red dragons SLAs and attack options is useless. And there is nothing the red dragon can do against that), no way to spy on the PCs, no way to interact with PHB races without being recognized, no way to direct minions unless you are in direct contact with them.

Without spellcasting dragons loose so much utility that the are nearly unusable as BBEG except "Dragon burnd down village" type BBEGs. Just because some DMs are so lazy that they don't want to prepare such iconic monsters (which are hardly encountered very often) for their sessions anymore I don't want to miss all the option spellcasting gives to dragons. Without them dragons as solitary creatures have nearly no way to actually do anything except sitting in their cave and waiting for th PCs to come to it. And if they do they will have a big disadvantage.

Hence the beauty of percentage chances. That way, it's established that not every dragon will have magic or be epic masters of subtlety, while DMs who want to use dragons as ingenius masterminds will still be able to do so. Everyone gets what they want in this case-people who want their dragons to be powerful and epic (like you), and those who want to see dragons taken down a peg or two from the all-powerful uber-monsters they've become since the days of Dragonlance (like me).

 

[VirgilCaine]

And you got this from my post.... how?

Just a few SLAs mean no actual spellcasting. No spellcasting means you won't have those kinds of lairs for very old dragons.

That's the kind of lair a very old dragon to have.

 

[Pants]

Just a few SLAs mean no actual spellcasting.

Well, that's the point.

No spellcasting means you won't have those kinds of lairs for very old dragons.

Maybe some people don't WANT those kinds of lairs for dragons.

Besides, it really depends upon the kind of SLA's available to the dragon doesn't it?

That's the kind of lair a very old dragon to have.

Not necessarily.

Old dragons are smart and cunning creatures. Just because they lose their spellcasting doesn't mean they automatically become unable to defend themselves or predict the plans of mortal adventurers with puny intellects.

 

[delericho]

Hence the beauty of percentage chances.

It wouldn't work. The CR (or equivalent) of the spellcasting dragon would be vastly different from the CR of a non-spellcasting dragon. Also, it's likely that the spellcasting dragon would spend its feats (or equivalent) and skills on different areas than the non-spellcasting dragon.

Basically, you would need two entirely different sets of statistics for the two 'types' of dragon. That's not necessarily a bad thing (perhaps even a good thing), but it then eliminates the need for 'percentage chances' - the DM should just use the creature that is more to his taste.

 

[Derren]

Maybe some people don't WANT those kinds of lairs for dragons.

So nobody should be allowed to make such lairs for dragons in their games?

Besides, it really depends upon the kind of SLA's available to the dragon doesn't it?

First people complain that Devils have too many SLAs and then they propose that dragon spellcasting is replaced by dozends of SLAs (Which are needed to give dragons the same amount of utility it has with spellcasting)...

Old dragons are smart and cunning creatures. Just because they lose their spellcasting doesn't mean they automatically become unable to defend themselves or predict the plans of mortal adventurers with puny intellects.

You are mistaken. Dragons without spellcasting are unable to defend themselves against many things adventurers can do. Without spellcasting dragons can't seal their lair against scrying and teleportation, can't prepare their defenses to counteract the PCs plan, can't scry on the party or otherwise detect where they are (alarm spells). They also can't shape their lair into a defensible fortress but have to rely on natural caves instead and are unable to do any form of intrigue because without illusions, polymorph or messaging spells they can't intaract with other creatures without revealing their identity.
And when the adventurers prepared themselves, for example with the appropriate energy protection dragons are hosed as they can neither dispel them or use a different energy to attack them. And when they are loosing they can't flee their lair because they lack teleportation spells so they are trapped.

As you see without spellcasting dragons are much weaker than in 3.X unless you simply say they can do all the above mentioned out of combat things without explanation which is in my opinion extremely lame.
People always say they want more options but removing spellcasting from dragons takes away a large amount of options and no number of SLAs can fix that.

If you want brute dragons then simply don't use spellcasting.