Are demons/devils/dragons too complex?

[MerricB]

Dragons should not be able to cast spells that are better than their natural weapons - fangs, claws and breath. Heck, I'm quite happy with them not casting spells at all.

This makes a Red Dragon predictable? Get rid of fire immunity. You get rewarded for protecting yourself against it, without making it a non-threat. (Hey, I think they're doing that in 4e!)

I detest too-complex Demons. I don't mind them having a few spell-like abilities. Actually, I do mind - I'd prefer they had powers specific to each breed. Special abilities, not ripped-off spells. I think they should have abilities that enhance their role outside of combat.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

There is certainly a place for demons and devils with an assortment of abilities that may not get used in most encounters. I do not see any good reason why that should be the norm for their kind. I think we can have it both ways.

As for dragons, the designers are damned if they do and damned if they don't.

Really classic dragons from mythology perhaps shouldn't be much of a challenge to parties that are 12th level or higher. The party is "epic" by some reasonable definition of the word -- the amount of magic at the PCs disposal just blows away what is commonly found in mythology.

Yeah, there are a few unique dragons like Tiamat or Midgard Serpent that could give even a god some pause. Legends are also populated by plenty of "run-of-the-mill" dragons that could entertain a solo-adventuring Saint George or Beowulf, but would be slaughtered like kittens by a mid-level D&D party.

If the designers pump up the dragons with potent magical abilities to extend their career as top-notch opponents, then they just feel a lot less "dragonish". As least to me. Am I fighting a dragon or a weird sorceror in drag?

 

[prosfilaes]

This makes a Red Dragon predictable? Get rid of fire immunity. You get rewarded for protecting yourself against it, without making it a non-threat.

Yuck. Fire immunity is an epic ability, an ability out of legend, a cool ability. "This is the Armor of Erinthal. It will grant you immunity to all forms of fire, and protected Erinthal until he was ambushed by a white dragon. Wear it proudly."

50 points of Fire Resistance is so gamist; the only difference betwen it and 100 points is bigger dragons. How do you say that in game: "A few months, you made me this magic armor that would protect me against huge dragons; now I need magic armor that will protect me against colossal dragons. Why can't you just make me immune to fire? Oh, yes, because the gods want to continue throwing bigger dragons at us."

 

[VirgilCaine]

Yuck. Fire immunity is an epic ability, an ability out of legend, a cool ability. "This is the Armor of Erinthal. It will grant you immunity to all forms of fire, and protected Erinthal until he was ambushed by a white dragon. Wear it proudly."

50 points of Fire Resistance is so gamist; the only difference betwen it and 100 points is bigger dragons. How do you say that in game: "A few months, you made me this magic armor that would protect me against huge dragons; now I need magic armor that will protect me against colossal dragons. Why can't you just make me immune to fire? Oh, yes, because the gods want to continue throwing bigger dragons at us."

And Empowered Maximized Fireballs or somesuch.

I agree. There's not a lot of point making it SO MUCH FIRE to hurt them that he might as well be immune.

 

[delericho]

I agree. There's not a lot of point making it SO MUCH FIRE to hurt them that he might as well be immune.

On the other hand, if you make it immunity, rather than just really big fire resistance, then you get some bright spark introducing a feat like Piercing Cold (from Frostburn), that makes a spell so cold it even affects creatures that are immune to cold. Unless they have the Cold subtype.

And then that opens the door to a feat that makes such a creature really immune to cold damage, and so on.

By contrast, if you get rid of absolute immunities, but instead just give huge Cold Resistance, then the Piercing Cold feat can just add +10 (or whatever) cold damage to the spell, and everything else handles itself without further adjustment or special cases.

 

[frankthedm]

Yuck. Fire immunity is an epic ability, an ability out of legend, a cool ability.

So are wishes of infinite power. Plenty of things that work well in myth are best kept out of a game for playability

"This is the Armor of Erinthal. It will grant you immunity to all forms of fire, and protected Erinthal until he was ambushed by a white dragon. Wear it proudly."

For all the NPC knows, 60 to 70 fire resist IS immunity! Has he lowered the suit into a volcano "just to be sure"? No, maybe it make the wearer immune, maybe it just so fire resitant you'll need to wake up a red great wyrm to find out.

 

[VirgilCaine]

On the other hand, if you make it immunity, rather than just really big fire resistance, then you get some bright spark introducing a feat like Piercing Cold (from Frostburn), that makes a spell so cold it even affects creatures that are immune to cold. Unless they have the Cold subtype.

And then that opens the door to a feat that makes such a creature really immune to cold damage, and so on.

Riiiiight. I don't remember this being a big problem in any of my games, and I don't remember a big broughaha with lots of people having problems with this.

 

[Doug McCrae]

Riiiiight. I don't remember this being a big problem in any of my games, and I don't remember a big broughaha with lots of people having problems with this.

There are too many on/offs in D&D. Either an encounter is a cakewalk or a TPK, with little ground in between. If you have protection from evil or death ward some monsters become laughable. If you don't they are deadly and it all depends on the ticking clock. Time shouldn't be such a factor, it's much harder to adjudicate in a tabletop rpg than a video game. Whether a spell is on or off shouldn't be such a factor. Better if prot from evil lasted all day and gave you a +4 bonus vs possession (or whatever) rather than shutting it down completely.

 

[prosfilaes]

So are wishes of infinite power. Plenty of things that work well in myth are best kept out of a game for playability

But I don't like this one. To me, when the characters start to become epic, it's a copout to just make the numbers bigger. There's no difference between 50 points of fire resistance versus a red dragon and 100 points of fire resistance versus a bigger red dragon.

For all the NPC knows, 60 to 70 fire resist IS immunity!

But the player will know, the instant he writes it down on the sheet, and even if you don't tell everything up front, both they and the character will know the instant it leaks. Again, epic items should be cool. They can have side-effects, ranging from the annoying to the soul sucking, but they should be cool, in a way that +x or x points of resistance isn't.

 

[Hussar]

Dragons should not be able to cast spells that are better than their natural weapons - fangs, claws and breath. Heck, I'm quite happy with them not casting spells at all.

This makes a Red Dragon predictable? Get rid of fire immunity. You get rewarded for protecting yourself against it, without making it a non-threat. (Hey, I think they're doing that in 4e!)

I detest too-complex Demons. I don't mind them having a few spell-like abilities. Actually, I do mind - I'd prefer they had powers specific to each breed. Special abilities, not ripped-off spells. I think they should have abilities that enhance their role outside of combat.

I'm with MerricB on this one. Not all demons/devils suffer from this, but, if your demon has 10-15 SLA's, that's about 8 -10 too many. There's just so many other ways of getting around the whole plotsy stuff that doesn't require a full page spread of SLA's. You want that Marilith to have undead flunkies? Great, give them to her. Animate Dead is just a waste of space.

This is one thing I'm truly looking forward to with the new edition is the idea that monsters should start out slim and lean. If you want to add all that other stuff on top, go ahead, but, keep the basic chasis pared down.