Are demons/devils/dragons too complex?

[Aus_Snow]

There are too many on/offs in D&D. Either an encounter is a cakewalk or a TPK, with little ground in between. If you have protection from evil or death ward some monsters become laughable. If you don't they are deadly and it all depends on the ticking clock. Time shouldn't be such a factor, it's much harder to adjudicate in a tabletop rpg than a video game. Whether a spell is on or off shouldn't be such a factor. Better if prot from evil lasted all day and gave you a +4 bonus vs possession (or whatever) rather than shutting it down completely.

QFT.

On that note, I recommend Sean K. Reyonolds' 'fewer absolutes' (and some of the other mods) in general.

 

[DragonLancer]

Dragons are the only creature that I find needs time to plan and work out. They could do with having a simpler construction system IMO.

 

[Derren]

QFT.

On that note, I recommend Sean K. Reyonolds' 'fewer absolutes' (and some of the other mods) in general.

I don't agree with "fewer Absolutes" Some things are simply absolutely immune against something and that should be reflected in the stats. You can't burn a fire elemental no matter how hot the fire is.

 

[delericho]

I don't agree with "fewer Absolutes" Some things are simply absolutely immune against something and that should be reflected in the stats. You can't burn a fire elemental no matter how hot the fire is.

Not necessarily true. If, for example, one were to drop a fire elemental into the sun, one could certainly make the case that the boundary between "the elemental" and "the sun" ceases to be meaningful. In effect, therefore, the fire elemental has been 'burnt up' by the sun.

Or, you can rule that fire elementals are flat-out immune to fire; it works either way. "Fewer absolutes" does not mean "no absolutes", since that would be something of a contradiction.

 

[Psion]

On that note, I recommend Sean K. Reyonolds' 'fewer absolutes' (and some of the other mods) in general.

If that's the article that bemoans how a fire giant shouldn't be able to withstand the heat of the sun, I so disagree. I think that way of thinking is poisonous to games. It sacrifices the general case for the extreme case and as prosfilaes points out, flies in the face of the fantasy feel.

 

[ruleslawyer]

That said, ol' JRRT seems to refer to sliding scale resistance in The Fellowship of the Ring when he talks about the resistance to fire of the Great Rings:

"It has been said that dragon-fire could melt and consume the Rings of Power, but there is not now any dragon left on earth in which the old fire is hot enough; nor was there ever any dragon, not even Ancalagon the Black, who could have harmed the One Ring."

Gandalf then goes on to mention that there *is* one fire hot enough to destroy the One Ring, that being the fires of Orodruin (Mount Doom).

Similarly, in The Blue Sword, the magical ointment that Aerin uses to protect herself from the fire of the Great Dragon Maur still results in her being burned and damaged; it just allows her to kill the dragon without being incinerated on first sight.

So I do think there is precedent in fantasy for resistances rather than immunities. It also makes for better gameplay overall, IMO.

 

[Aus_Snow]

I think that way of thinking is poisonous to games.

I haven't found that to be the case in actual play, so (of course) I disagree. It has enhanced play, in fact. YMMV, and apparently does. Fair enough.

It sacrifices the general case for the extreme case and as prosfilaes points out, flies in the face of the fantasy feel.

Um, no. It really, really doesn't.

But each to their own, naturally. If you find immunities as written work well for your gaming, more power to you.

 

[Pants]

Demons and Devils could use some simplifying I think. Most fiends CR 10 and below are pretty much fine. Most have a couple of abilities, some SLA's, but nothing that is really so bad. It's when you start looking at the higher CR fiends.

Look at the hamatula.

He has:
- DR, SR, immunities, and resistances (like all fiends)
- fear
- impale
- improved grab
- barbed defense
- summon baatezu
- 6 SLA's

Not counting HP, that's 15 separate things that a DM needs to keep track of. Sure a DM could study the monster beforehand, but he could still forget. I've done it plenty of times. On separate occasions, I've forgotten about the hamatula's fear, improved grab, and barbed defense abilities.

Does the hamatula really NEED to be this complex? It's only a CR 11 too. I can understand keeping the upper echelons of fiend-dom relatively complex. They shouldn't be something that DM's use without preparation, they're CR 20 for a reason. But the lower castes? Some of them could definitely use some improving.

As for Dragons:
Deemphasize the spellcasting and I think dragons will be much easier opponents. Grant them a couple of SLA's chosen from a list or something and that'll make them magical enough that most parties probably won't know the difference.

 

[VirgilCaine]

I'm with MerricB on this one. Not all demons/devils suffer from this, but, if your demon has 10-15 SLA's, that's about 8 -10 too many. There's just so many other ways of getting around the whole plotsy stuff that doesn't require a full page spread of SLA's. You want that Marilith to have undead flunkies? Great, give them to her. Animate Dead is just a waste of space.

I would rather work with what the demon has to figure out what defenses or strategies it will use. Built-in plot hooks, kind of.

As for Dragons:
Deemphasize the spellcasting and I think dragons will be much easier opponents. Grant them a couple of SLA's chosen from a list or something and that'll make them magical enough that most parties probably won't know the difference.

A dragon using Born of the Three Thunders Permanenced Walls of Fire (to stop teleporting, as well as to screw up enemies) as walls in it's Phase-Door-access-Disentegrated-out-of-a-mountain lair is a far cry from a few SLAs.

 

[VirgilCaine]

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