D&D General Are dragons wings too small/little?

[Umbran]

Awesome Star Wars reference. However, there are already real life animals, most extinct, but some not, that break so many laws of physics with their ability to fly. I'll post something else when I have more time about how it works.

Do not confuse "we don't fully understand the dynamics of that" with "breaks the laws of physics". Nothing breaks the laws of physics - at worst they demonstrate laws of physics of which we were previously unaware.

The classic example is the bumblebee, which, back in the day, defied explanation. However, the confusion came due to an assumption - that the bumblebee flapped its wings up and down, when they really flap them back and forth - the resulting fluid dynamics are different, but calculable, and the bumblebee (and the hummingbird, which uses a similar movement to hover) is no longer an enigma.

The only block to our understanding was being able to see the wing motion. We couldn't understand until we built cameras that could show us the motion.

 

[Umbran]

Ah, thread necromancy. Almost didn't hit quota for January!

An actual dragon would need to be made of unobtainium to reduce weight, have some sort of solution for the square-cube law, and (yes) would need wings significantly larger compared to their body size.

Noting that the usual discussion of large animal flight includes assumptions of Earth-gravity and Earth-air density, neither of which we actually need in our fantasy world. With more dense are, you fly more easily, with lesser gravity, the weight is less of an issue.

Note that one generally invokes unobtanium to fix the square-cube and wing-size problems (which are not actually separate problems - they are just different aspects of the same thing).

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Noting that the usual discussion of large animal flight includes assumptions of Earth-gravity and Earth-air density, neither of which we actually need in our fantasy world. With more dense are, you fly more easily, with lesser gravity, the weight is less of an issue.

Note that one generally invokes unobtanium to fix the square-cube and wing-size problems (which are not actually separate problems - they are just different aspects of the same thing).

As I had understood it, square-cube includes several things that wingspan doesn't, like thermal regulation and circulatory system requirements. So while you could just say "square-cube law" and be done with it, it's more effective to mention wings separately, even though that is technically redundant.

 

[Umbran]

As I had understood it, square-cube includes several things that wingspan doesn't, like thermal regulation and circulatory system requirements.

Okay, for one thing, neither of those things are issues of flight, specifically.

For another, dragons probably don't actually give us circulatory system or thermal regulation problems. The largest land animal known today is likely Argentinosaurus, which may have run up to 130 feet long, weighing 110 tons. The D&D Draconomicon places ancient red dragons around 120 feet long. 5e isn't nearly so specific.

 

[Lanefan]

Okay, for one thing, neither of those things are issues of flight, specifically.

For another, dragons probably don't actually give us circulatory system or thermal regulation problems. The largest land animal known today is likely Argentinosaurus, which may have run up to 130 feet long, weighing 110 tons.

It would take an awful lot of both energy (which is where the circulation etc. questions come in) and wingspan to get that off the ground.

 

[LordEntrails]

Man, you guys must be fun to watch a movie with! Sometimes, and it's pretty often, you should just set aside concerns over realism and have fun. Just immerse yourself and have fun.

 

[Blue Orange]

Man, you guys must be fun to watch a movie with! Sometimes, and it's pretty often, you should just set aside concerns over realism and have fun. Just immerse yourself and have fun.

"If you're wondering how it flies and breathes, and other science facts...lalala..."

I think part of the fun is arguing with other people about how it could or couldn't happen. For whatever reason, fantasy games appeal to engineers and scientists, and some of them are going to do this stuff. Besides, you can come up with some fun alternate dragons. Maybe they're smaller and have huge wings and have a powerful flap attack.

 

[LordEntrails]

"If you're wondering how it flies and breathes, and other science facts...lalala..."

I think part of the fun is arguing with other people about how it could or couldn't happen. For whatever reason, fantasy games appeal to engineers and scientists, and some of them are going to do this stuff. Besides, you can come up with some fun alternate dragons. Maybe they're smaller and have huge wings and have a powerful flap attack.

Hey! I resemble those remarks!

 

[Incenjucar]

I like to bake this sort of thing into the lore of the world, with impossible things being a specifically "supernatural" effect that's layered over traditional physics, including physical feats that PCs pull off that shouldn't be possible.

 

[Laurefindel]

I don’t think dragon flight needs to be specifically magical in nature. Dragons have wings. Big wings. Therefore, they can fly.

This is logical and coherent with the in-game universe. Similarly, a Pegasus flies because it has wings. Giant bees fly even if their wings remain proportionally the same as regular bees. It’s all possible because it’s a fantasy world and the convention is that wings provide a mundane way to fly.

So that’s not to say that dragons aren’t magical creatures, only, in the setting’s logic, their wings allow them to fly « naturally » unlike, say, skeletal dragons or oriental dragons whose flight is more inherently magical in nature.