Are Druids regarded as the most powerful class in 3.5?

[Celebrim]

And to add, that the power to destroy a thing pretty much grants the power to control a thing.

Paul was either wrong or lying.

More to the point, 'Dune' is an excercise in mental sleight of hand. It (generally successfully) gives the illusion of great philosophical depth and insight. It took a great deal of intellect to create that illusion, and I admire the skill with which it was done. It is however, only an illusion.

One obvious counter to Paul's claim that he who had the power to destroy a thing, has the power to control it, is that the Spacing Guild to which he was speaking could have responded, "We have the power to destroy you."

The Spacing Guild and Paul held each other at an impasse. Each had the power to utterly destroy the other. The Spacing Guild could have responded to Paul's threat with planetary nuclear bombardment. In fact, they probably intended to do that until Paul made his counter threat. Each held the other by the throat, but neither actually controlled the other one. Either side could have shrugged and taken a mutually assured destruction option at any point.

The Guild didn't because the Guild had more to lose. Basically, the Guild shrugged and said, "You win." and then went back to doing what it had been doing before with no real change (except who they gave discount rates too), knowing that in fact Paul would have to rely on them or that sooner or latter he'd end up dead, and there was no real reason to push the issue with a fanatic just now.

 

[mirivor]

"So... you feel the great physical confrontation power is compensated for by the role-playing restrictions?

I disagree with the premise, and feel that whatever your motivation may be, your mechanics should be balanced with everyone else's."


In a perfect world, I agree. But D20 is not a perfect world. This is a role-playing game, even more so than a tactical combat one. When class and feat limitations include role-playing ones, then those role-playing ones are meant to help balance the mechanical ones. Clerics are beholden to their deity/cause. Should they stray from that path, then that deity will remove his follower's access to his power. Although I have never seen it done, it should be if called for. Druids are under the same obligation. They are beholden to a cause. They have taken spiritual oaths to that cause. Paladins as well. Just about any class with an alignment restriction has a mechanically undefined yet role-playing heavy restriction. It is up to the DM to enforce that or else he can suffer the strictly mechanical imbalances that are bound to occur in a system like D20.

Without a willing DM, D&D can quickly spiral into a tactical skirmish game. If this is what someone wants to play, then I can see the need for supremely balanced mechanics. But as this was never sited by the op, I assume that we are speaking about a role-playing game.

(Psi)SeveredHead: Protecting nature is not a downside, it is a limitation. A druid is beholden to that idea. Should the DM believe that it is not being adhered to, then you yank the druid's powers. This is a role-playing restriction that is no better or worse than the fact that should the druid wear forbidden armor he loses his abilities for a period of 24 hours after removing it. The only difference is the one is possible to put into words, where as the other is based soley on the judgement of the DM. I think that also answers your question about poorly-played druids, although you would have to elaborate a little for more definite info. I will assume that you mean poor RPing as opposed to poor tactical demonstration. In my games, if someone poorly plays a character class that has role-playing limitations, then they lose their abilities. Paladins of law and good do not wander the countryside slaughtering people. Clerics of a god of light and healing do not create zombies. If they do, then they have foregone their powers. The paladin falls from his deity's site and loses his abilities, as does the cleric. Same for the druid.

I cannot give specifics, because each DM probably has setting assumptions that can vary wildly. In one setting, aiding a city of people that rape nearby woodlands may cause the druid's fall. Another setting may do so because he left an unnatural disease to ravage the deer herds while he went off to find that magical vest. The possibilities are endless. The end point being that the limitations are there, providing the DM bothers with them.

Later!

 

[Midknightsun]

Because the MM seems to clearly indicate that at least in D&D that is precisely the case, at 4hd the wolf should increase in size to become large. Beyond that there is no further guideline but the text indicates that you are increasing the animal's HD and doesn't say you do NOT increase size, which is the assumed baseline from the MM entry.

For those interested, the General FAQ, page 9 indicates that a Druids Animal Companion does not increase in size.


http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221a

So no Godzilla growth hormones for your favorite pet

 

[Technik4]

The Spacing Guild and Paul held each other at an impasse. Each had the power to utterly destroy the other. The Spacing Guild could have responded to Paul's threat with planetary nuclear bombardment. In fact, they probably intended to do that until Paul made his counter threat. Each held the other by the throat, but neither actually controlled the other one. Either side could have shrugged and taken a mutually assured destruction option at any point.

The Guild didn't because the Guild had more to lose. Basically, the Guild shrugged and said, "You win." and then went back to doing what it had been doing before with no real change (except who they gave discount rates too), knowing that in fact Paul would have to rely on them or that sooner or latter he'd end up dead, and there was no real reason to push the issue with a fanatic just now.

There is nothing in the book that suggests the Guild had access to atomics, and even assuming it did, it would be risking quite a lot to use them (almost certainly the guild would have been wiped out by the combined houses and the landsraad). Frank Herbert always gave the spacing guild the attribute of a symbiote - leeching off of everyone else to ensure its own survival. This makes sense if you factor in their limited prescience, which was inactive once Muad'dib began his attack. Not knowing how things would turn out, the Guild went with the safe option of continuing to survive as they always had.

The point is Frank Herbert was correct - the ability to destroy a thing gives you control of it (which Paul's son Leto certainly showed with his 3,000 year reign).

 

[ruleslawyer]

Can we please leave off this unbelievably off-topic discussion?

 

[RedFox]

Out of curiosity, for those of you that increase Animal Companion's size with its HD, do you also include the standard bonuses/penalties that come from a typical size increase for an animal (i.e., bonus strength, reduced dexterity, movement speed, etc.).

That's the way we're playing it, yes.

Also: do you increase the paladin's mount size when it receives bonus hit dice?

I doubt it. I don't think that a warhorse (celestial or otherwise) has a HD Size progression.

Same as if a Druid took a Dire Wolf later on. They don't grow larger than Large.

For those interested, the General FAQ, page 9 indicates that a Druids Animal Companion does not increase in size.


http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221a

So no Gozilla growth hormones for your favorite pet

Ah. Figures. *grumble* Hmm, though of course this just means a Druid can go searching for an "unusually large and strong specimen of the species." Sounds like good quest fodder, actually.

 

[Plane Sailing]

What motivation, unless the game is crafted with the pc in mind, would compel a druid to stick with a group?

Eberron has some neat ideas with different druid groups:

Child of Winter (embraces death and decay. Friendly with vermin)
Ashbound (natures avengers, particularly oppose arcane magic)
Gatekeeper (founded to ward off aberrations and extra planar intrusions)
Warden (Dedicated to protecting a vast forest) - probably least useful here
Greensinger (closely linked to fey)

In addition to that there are all manner of literary reasons why a druid might be adventuring - e.g. someone burnt down his home/killed his mentor/corrupted something; a mentor sends him out into the world/ he needs to find new pastures to protect and nurture/ he is militant in his persuasion.

Cheers

 

[Plane Sailing]

I'd thought you were calculating incorrectly, but you weren't.

It's a lot of damage, but the holly berry fire seeds do have to be placed by hands. That's a significant limitation.

I agree.

On one occasion I gave them to the half dragon who was immune to fire, and detonated them by command word at the appropriate moment. On another occasion I cast protection from fire on myself and let them go myself(!).

 

[Darklone]

I agree.

On one occasion I gave them to the half dragon who was immune to fire, and detonated them by command word at the appropriate moment. On another occasion I cast protection from fire on myself and let them go myself(!).

Same here. Bard/Rogue with evasion got a bag full with these things and was sent into the middle of the enemies... I never rolled so many Refl saves in one evening!

 

[Falling Icicle]

In fact my group (I confess that we are all older gamers who have generally speaking stopped worrying about the mechanics) has foresworn the class. What motivation, unless the game is crafted with the pc in mind, would compel a druid to stick with a group? The druid wants to tend his mountains, his forest, his swamp, etc. He has no desire to go meandering about the globe fixing everyones' problems. Sure, one or two issues might involve him, but generally speaking I think that druids should be NPCs or relegated to special games that will involve a lot of wilderness (think Ptolus in the woods).

Druids must revere nature, this is true. But they are by no means forbidden from having other goals, motivations and concerns. A Druid may care for his friends, his kingdom, or his own personal power just like anyone else. Just because Druids revere nature doesn't mean that they have to spend their whole lives hugging trees.