Are fighters that specialize in spiked chain viable/survivable at most/all levels?

[Scion]

and there you have the difference between simple (which is incredibly easy), martial (which takes some training but can be used within a short period of time with said training) and exotic (which require very special training, potentially over a long period of time).

 

[ARandomGod]

and there you have the difference between simple (which is incredibly easy), martial (which takes some training but can be used within a short period of time with said training) and exotic (which require very special training, potentially over a long period of time).

I'm not buying that exotic takes very special training... at least not in the "exceptionally difficult in comparison to martial training" idea. I do, on the other hand, see it as taking special training in the "difficult to access this training". And the feat pretty much represents finding a trainer.

Of course, that's all semantics.

 

[Tetsubo]

I'm not buying that exotic takes very special training... at least not in the "exceptionally difficult in comparison to martial training" idea. I do, on the other hand, see it as taking special training in the "difficult to access this training". And the feat pretty much represents finding a trainer.

Of course, that's all semantics.

I think that you can be self-taught. I see the Exotic Feat as being a reflection of extensive training in one rather odd weapon. Think of it like getting a PHd in Double Sword or Dwarven Waraxe. A Martial weapon might be like a Masters Degree. With a Simple weapon being a Bachelors Degree.

 

[Scion]

I'm not buying that exotic takes very special training... at least not in the "exceptionally difficult in comparison to martial training" idea. I do, on the other hand, see it as taking special training in the "difficult to access this training". And the feat pretty much represents finding a trainer.

Of course, that's all semantics.

Umm.. yeah, definately semantics.

Some of the exotic weapons could simply be 'hard to find trainers for' I guess.. but I would assume most are simply 'very' difficult to use effectively. Double sword? Very difficult. Spiked chain? very difficult.

Using a single sword doesnt generally cost most who use it a feat. Training to use one in both hands effectively at the same time does, as does training to use a hilt with two swords coming out of it.

I really dont see the 'hard to access this training' as being a real condition for most exotic weapons however. That would, to me, seem to say that cross class skills take more points because you had a hard time finding a trainer for it, instead of it simply being difficult for the training you were doing.

 

[ARandomGod]

I really dont see the 'hard to access this training' as being a real condition for most exotic weapons however. That would, to me, seem to say that cross class skills take more points because you had a hard time finding a trainer for it, instead of it simply being difficult for the training you were doing.

Well, I suppose to be fair I don't see cross class skills as being more difficult for the training you've been doing either. I see that as an arbitrary punishment to enforce stereotypes and/or preserve game balance.

 

[Scion]

Well, I suppose to be fair I don't see cross class skills as being more difficult for the training you've been doing either. I see that as an arbitrary punishment to enforce stereotypes and/or preserve game balance.

Sounds similar to exotic weapons in your arguement. You could simply just assume that and not worry about it.

 

[Victim]

I've also seen it used in a current game from LV 1-4. My opinion is that for that game, it's a bit weak, since at low levels, with few of the support feats, its advantages don't outweigh the disadvantage of not having a shield. Note that we are frequently swarmed with many, many low CR creatures, so AC ends up being more important than normal (+2 to AC in some combats would have 1/2ed the damage received).

Interesting. In my experience, reach attacks are especially handy against weaker creatures because you can thin out attackers before they even reach you. You can often 1 shot enemies at 1st or 2nd level (especially with 2 handed weapons), so when their numbers are reduced when they have to move through your reach.

The real problem at LV 14+ is not that the spiked chain is weak- it's that major spellcasters blow through the roof in power somewhere around that level (Sorcerer a bit earlier, Cleric a bit later). All weapons are weak by LV 15 or so; the primary purpose of front liners becomes meat-shielding, not damage dealing. When I played a high-level sorcerer, my character was nearly the offensive strength of the rest of the entire party - and that was a party that was heavily pumped by her spells.

Really? Our sorcerers have proved more useful for battlefield control and buffs at higher levels than for damage dealing. At 15th level, a sorcerer can do 15d6 (about 52) damage a shot with his better spells. Our offensive fighters - with some buffs from the casters - can do more than 100 on a fairly good round of attacks. The biggest thing that slows us down is DR, since both the offensive fighters rely on extra attacks. In another game, the paladin was smite-charging people for several hundred points (and, since the attack had the bonuses from charging and smiting, it wasn't likely to miss). It's also alot easier to ward against energy attacks than it is to get DR and such.

 

[frankx]

Goliath with good stats for the Powerful Build trait, Large sized chain for reach and damage increase, feats as mentioned should be as viable as anything for a fighter all the way until Spellcasters dominate. At least I hope so. I am starting one soon.

As I think about it, the spiked chain is a cool option for a fighter instead of the "SEE ENEMY, SMASH ENEMY" mentality. Tripping and disarming are a nice change of pace. The reduced damage output is not a problem when you consider the overall impact of the weapon on a melee. The winner of the fight is the guy who takes all of the other guys hit points before losing all of his own. Armor class is the best way to reduce your hit point loss, but so is keeping the other guy out of melee reach. In the right situation, being able to utilize the full attack option while the other guy gets to use only a partial action to attack or use a ranged attack because he has to stand up every round, is a great way to make him bleed faster than you. Even without a high BAB, the improved trip let's you hit most things because it is a melee touch attack, then have a good chance to reduce his armor class, and you get another swing for damage, and to top it off it sets you up for a third attack when he stands up. You bleed slower, he bleeds faster. That equation works at all levels.

Notice I said "in the right situation." I am not planning to specialize exclusively in the chain. When my DM gets tired of seeing his bad guys on their buts, I will need a big sword to take out the ten legged huge undead behirs. As good as the spiked chain is, in the wrong situation, it is more useless them most weapons. Given the arguments on both sides, I would have to say the weapon is balanced. That being the case, I think it is going to be a fun alternative.

 

[Nail]

Our sorcerers have proved more useful for battlefield control and buffs at higher levels than for damage dealing. ..... The biggest thing that slows us down is DR, .....It's also alot easier to ward against energy attacks than it is to get DR and such.

All of that has been our experience too (playing from lvl 4 to lvl 19 -- 2 years RL playing time). Our Sor 16 is at his best when he's hampering opponents or when he's casting chained versions of Fly, etc. Still, he really does like the blasting better.

For the chain, I see the major problem being fewer low Str 2-legged opponents at higher levels, and fewer high CR creatures with weapons to disarm.