Are fighters that specialize in spiked chain viable/survivable at most/all levels?

[Tetsubo]

This arguement presumes that functionality takes precedence over convienience which, historically, is not the case. Anyone who uses M$ Windows understands that.

If Windows were to crash every five minutes it would not endanger my life (though the computer might well not survive my wrath). If I use a weapon that doesn't work in combat, I am meat for the crows. Weapons were SOMETIMES used because of tradition. But more often than not used because they worked for the type of combat the warrior found himself involved in. Combat is very Darwinian, if it doesn't help you adapt and survive, it won't make the "evolutionary" cut.

Spiked Chains, as depicted in the games illustrations, are not usable. So they would not be used by a real world warrior. The supposed advantages and disadvantages of a Spiked Chain are moot. They are just silly.

 

[Tetsubo]

Good anaylsis! Let's add in the caveat you almost left out, though.

I think this glaive example is interesting. But if you change the damage amount, the critical range, allow it to be used at short and reach range, add a disarm ability and a trip ability... it's no longer a glaive. I don't know what you'd call it but "glaive" wouldn't fit. It would however be based solidly in reality. Rather than the utter fantasy land that the Spiked Chain lives in...

 

[Belbarid]

If Windows were to crash every five minutes it would not endanger my life (though the computer might well not survive my wrath). If I use a weapon that doesn't work in combat, I am meat for the crows. Weapons were SOMETIMES used because of tradition. But more often than not used because they worked for the type of combat the warrior found himself involved in. Combat is very Darwinian, if it doesn't help you adapt and survive, it won't make the "evolutionary" cut.

Spiked Chains, as depicted in the games illustrations, are not usable. So they would not be used by a real world warrior. The supposed advantages and disadvantages of a Spiked Chain are moot. They are just silly.

You're approaching this logically- which I can appreciate. Unfortunately, logic rarely applies to the real world.

Say you're a medieval land-owner outfitting a militia for whatever reason. Are you going to outfit them with spiked chains, which would be difficult to use, difficult to train people to use effectively, difficult to find people knowlegable enough in their use to train others, and probably a real pain to find or produce? Or are you going to go for swords, which are common enough that people at least generally know how to use them and are easier to procure?

It's a convienience factor. The typical medieval "longsword" was effeective enough and common enough, and therefore became ubiquitous. Thus my Windows analogy. Corporations don't use it because it's the most effective/stable/secure. They use it because it's the most common.

 

[Storm Raven]

I think this glaive example is interesting. But if you change the damage amount, the critical range, allow it to be used at short and reach range, add a disarm ability and a trip ability... it's no longer a glaive. I don't know what you'd call it but "glaive" wouldn't fit. It would however be based solidly in reality. Rather than the utter fantasy land that the Spiked Chain lives in...

You are tilting at windmills here. I don't think anyone is claiming that the spiked chain is a realistic weapon in the historical sense. What is being asserted is that, as presented in the rules, the spiked chain is a balanced weapon when compared to other weapons detailed by the rules.

 

[satori01]

Your analysis is good Storm Raven except for a glaive wielder is going to have many of the same feats as a spike chain wielder,
(combat reflexes, improved trip, etc, etc), but the glaive wielder is going to have to at some point drop the nice damage glaive and draw some other weapon, because the monster ARE GOING to get adjacent to him or her.

Sure, sure armor spikes can take care of having a weapon handy, but I wonder if one averaged the damage of armor spikes and the glaive would the damage curve look something like that of a spike chain.

Spike chain is certainly not overpowered, for the most part most exotic weapons are not picked by players because feats are precious. As has been pointed out before a spike chain works best in the hands of a high strength fighter, despite the agility of the weapon. I have seen a spiked chain wielder with cleave wreck havoc on formations of monsters, using coordinated tactics with the other tanks to get the killing blow on a front rank monster and then using cleave to hit second ranks.

 

[Storm Raven]

Your analysis is good Storm Raven except for a glaive wielder is going to have many of the same feats as a spike chain wielder, (combat reflexes, improved trip, etc, etc), but the glaive wielder is going to have to at some point drop the nice damage glaive and draw some other weapon, because the monster ARE GOING to get adjacent to him or her.

They will probably have similar feats to some extend. The glaive weilder won't have to spend an EWP, and might not bother with Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, and Improved Disarm either (spending those feats on other things). Not having to get Combat Expertise will save him the trouble of putting a 13+ score in Intelligence too.

In any event, the glaive wielder will usually be able to maneuver awayfrom the "close-in" monsters with a 5 foot step. Not always, but often enough that it will be a minor problem most of the time. And that's what the EWP cost of the spiked chain covers.

 

[ARandomGod]

I'd like to know if I can start play with a fighter geared towards the twirling links of steel and expect within reason to fare well.

I've seen a lot of talk on this thread about the spiked chain in general, debate as to it being overpowered or not (which does hint that it is at the very least viable!)

However I'm not seeing what I personally hoped to see, that being people who've actually playtested the combo at all levels. In specific higher levels, because I've personally seen it several times through low to mid levels.

(And without playtesting IMO people's opinions are just that, opinions, based solely on conjecture. Interesting and fun, but ultimately not very informative).

Now, as for actual playtesting experience, like I said I’ve seen it in play up to mid levels. At low levels it’s nice, it gets better up to mid levels, at which point it seems to plateau, and even seems to decrease in power from levels 10 to 15. I don’t know how they play from 15+, I’ve never seen it… however from what I have seen it seems likely that it loses power rapidly.

So MY question, is that decrease in power after level 12 or so an illusion? Or is it just that it stops increasing in power at the same rate, and that’s when other builds are catching up? IS the playstyle viable for all 20 levels? What about epic progression? (Actually that doesn’t matter very much to me, I don’t like epic progression, but I’m still curious).

 

[Scion]

The higher level you are the more likely it is that your opponents will be able to ignore your reach for whatever reason.

Which means that the main advantage of the weapon that the character worked so hard for can be mostly useless.

There are enough variety of feats and spells to help mitigate this and make it more useful in general, but given simple environmental factors (such as cover, hallways, etc) and skills/feats (tumble anyone?) it is going to be difficult.

But that is my opinion of course based on games I have been in and have run in the past.

It may be one of the best pure fighter builds at higher levels (I'd say definately in the top three), but are pure fighter builds even viable at higher levels to begin with? Even the best ones?

 

[Shallown]

I played a spiked chain fighter/rogue up to 15th or so and it worked fairly well. It seems that as a weapon it is as useful at higher levels as any other weapon for a fighter. It seems to peek out at 6th to about 10th level when you can finally get all the feats and work the various combos that a spiked chain offers.

I don't see at as any weaker than other weapon or weapon combos at higher levels (15+) I think it holds its own.

Later

 

[Bryan898]

However I'm not seeing what I personally hoped to see, that being people who've actually playtested the combo at all levels. In specific higher levels, because I've personally seen it several times through low to mid levels.

I've had a player use a spiked chain up to level 14. The character was the fighter/ scout I mentioned earlier. He focused on using AoO's to his benefit and getting as many in a round as possible. The Skirmish ability and two to three attacks a round at Full BAB makes for good damage output. His trip wasn't bad either, when enlarged he could trip most anything he wanted to. Enemies a size larger or with multiple legs only get a +4 bonus, but so does the person using trip if they have improved trip (improved trip only gives a +4 bonus to the tripper, not if you're the one being tripped).

IMO the best advantage to the spiked chain wielder is the ability to trip, and that it's a great weapon for an AoO build. AoO's become rather deadly at higher levels because they use your highest attack, which is where most of your damage comes from.