Are fighters that specialize in spiked chain viable/survivable at most/all levels?

[farscapesg1]

Another way to look at the spike chain as possibly being broken is to compare it to other reach weapons (polearms) and recognize the Shortened Grip feat in Dragon Magazine 331.

A Spiked Chain requires one feat to use, Exotic Weapon Proficiency. It grants the wielder a bonus on disarms, is treated as a trip weapon, and allows them to attack at both 10' and 5'. It deals 2d4 damage and has a threat range of 20/x2. It can also be treated as a finesse weapon.

To get a comparable polearm you would have to .... wait, you can't!

There are no polearms that are treated as a tripping weapon, grant a bonus on disarms, and allow attacking at both 10' and 5' by the core rules. In fact, there are not polearms that even just give you the tripping weapon ability and a bonus to disarm. The closest you get is the guisarme (reach and tripping, 2d4 20/x3) and the Ranseur (reach and disarm bonus, 2d4 20/x3). By spending another feat on Shorten Grip (non-core), you now have a weapon that has either tripping or disarm bonuses and can attack at either 10' or 5' (but suffers a -2 to hit at 5'). So, by spending the same number of feats, you still have a weapon that doesn't match the Spiked Chain???

 

[cignus_pfaccari]

The closest you get is the guisarme (reach and tripping, 2d4 20/x3) and the Ranseur (reach and disarm bonus, 2d4 20/x3). By spending another feat on Shorten Grip (non-core), you now have a weapon that has either tripping or disarm bonuses and can attack at either 10' or 5' (but suffers a -2 to hit at 5'). So, by spending the same number of feats, you still have a weapon that doesn't match the Spiked Chain???

...yet the polearms have a x3 crit, which is objectively better than the Spiked Chain's x2 crit.

They're still balanced. Shorten Grip will (theoretically) work with ANY polearm. So, any old polearm you find can work with it. EWP: Spiked Chain does nothing to help you use the kusarigama or other chain weapon that the ninja just dropped.

Brad

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

I think you overestimate the significance of crit range/multipliers. At most, a good crit range or multiplier with keen or improved critical will multiply your damage by 1.3--assuming a 100% confirmation rate which is only realistic for paladins using the bless weapon spell. Otherwise, it hovers between 50 and 70%. So, you're talking about a 15-21% increase in damage dice from crits using a falchion, scimitar, heavy pick, or scythe. Of course, the two handed weapons in that group have the same base damage as the chain, so there's no exponential advantage there. A character wielding a x3 or 19-20 weapon with Imp Crit will see a 10-15% increase in damage. Since the comparable weapons there are guisarme, glaive, greatsword, and greataxe, there is sometimes a slight exponential effect. A spiked chain wielder does get crits though and with Imp Crit or keen will gain a 5-7% damage increase. And all that only applies against crittable foes. It will be less significant against foes with fortification armor, undead, constructs, plants, etc.

So, you're talking about a 10-14% damage advantage from crit qualities in cases where that matters. That's significant, but remember that it only adds up to about three points of damage when the character is maxed out for critting and does 30 points per swing.

Now, if you consider that flurry of blows (EWM ability) gives the chain wielder an extra attack at full BAB -2, and roughly estimate that 66% of a level 11-15 fighter's damage comes from the first attacks, (counting a haste attack from a speed weapon or boots of speed so he has 2 first attacks), the flurry of blows ability is likely to increase full attack damage against all foes by 33% or so. The extra attack is two to three times as significant as the difference in critical qualities.

At higher levels the limited critical threat range and low critical damage multiplier will seriously hamper the character's ability to deal damage. The low base damage dice just compound the problem at that point.

 

[Scion]

So you are saying that they are behind on damage, and a significant amount of damage, but that is ok because you can take some prc somewhere and do something extra with the spiked chain and that makes it powerful?

Ignoring that you would still be behind in damage and feats from some other class who did something similar with a prc of course.

I must be missing your point basalisk, if it is anything like what I have just said then basically you are agreeing that there are drawbacks and they can be pretty hefty (needing to take a prc to get some sort of benefit to maybe catch up seems like a 'very' hefty penalty indeed).

 

[farscapesg1]

...yet the polearms have a x3 crit, which is objectively better than the Spiked Chain's x2 crit.

They're still balanced. Shorten Grip will (theoretically) work with ANY polearm. So, any old polearm you find can work with it. EWP: Spiked Chain does nothing to help you use the kusarigama or other chain weapon that the ninja just dropped.

Brad

But the x3 crit, while being better than the x2 of the spiked chain, does not equal the added benefit of either the tripping ability or the bonus to disarm attempts (depending on which polearm you compare it to).

Yes the Shorten Grip feat would work with any polearm, but the attacks at 5' range are at a -2 penalty, while the Spiked Chain doesn't suffer this.

Personally, I think the Spiked Chain would have been fine if they had "balanced" it with being slightly worse at close range (-2 attack rolls) and left everything else as is.

 

[Prism]

But the x3 crit, while being better than the x2 of the spiked chain, does not equal the added benefit of either the tripping ability or the bonus to disarm attempts (depending on which polearm you compare it to).

Actually, I think the increased crit is possibly better than the trip or disarm benefits. Disarming is useless against a large number of opponents. Tripping is probably more useful than disarm but still very situational

 

[Kodam]

Hi!

The SC is a specialized Weapon against Humanoids. All its advances (reach, tripping, disarming) work fine against them but are of little use when fighting big monsters, especially when these are multipedal.

Kodam

 

[Storm Raven]

But the x3 crit, while being better than the x2 of the spiked chain, does not equal the added benefit of either the tripping ability or the bonus to disarm attempts (depending on which polearm you compare it to).

The disarm bonus is useless against anything with natural weapons, which make up a relatviely large proportion of the opponents most adventurers face. The trip capability is not particularly useful against a wide array of opponents: quadrupeds, flyers, Large or bigger opponents (who are usually also quite strong), and so on and so forth.

Sure, the increased critical threat range is not useful against undead, constructs, and anything else immune to critical hits, but then the low base damage dice hurts the spiked chain. In any event, looking at the chart for martial two-handed weapons, the standard tradeoff is one step of damage die, critical threat range, or critical multiplier equals one special. The spiked chain works like this:

Take a glaive (1d10/20 x3, reach).
Reduce its damage die and add a disarm bonus (2d4, 20 x3, reach, +2 disarm).
Reduce its criticial multiplier and add a trip ability (2d4, 20 x2, reach, +2 disarm, trip).
Require that it take a feat to use, and give it the reach and close ability (2d4, 20 x2, reach and close, +2 disarm, trip).

At this point you pretty much have a spiked chain, and the trade-offs have been standard down the line for other polearms. You can make this sort of evolution for any two-handed martial weapon and convert it to any other two handed martial weapon.

I know I left off the finessability of the chain, but that's an almost trivial issue. In point of fact, you could make virtually any weapon finessable and not have it affect game balance at all, since finessing a weapon requires a feat to do to begin with. And in the case of the spiked chain, finessing it compounds its primary drawback (low damage) since you are likely not getting any significant additional Strength based damage, a serious drawback when you are using a two-handed weapon.

 

[Belbarid]

This has always been one of my biggest gripes with the Spiked Chain. Since it was never used in reality, it can't possibly that good of a design.

This arguement presumes that functionality takes precedence over convienience which, historically, is not the case. Anyone who uses M$ Windows understands that.

 

[Nail]

Good anaylsis! Let's add in the caveat you almost left out, though.

Take a glaive (1d10/20 x3, reach).
Reduce its damage die and add a disarm bonus (2d4, 20 x3, reach, +2 disarm).
Reduce its criticial multiplier and add a trip ability (2d4, 20 x2, reach, +2 disarm, trip).
Require a feat to use, and give it the reach and close ability (2d4, 20 x2, reach and close, +2 disarm, trip).
Extra: Unlike the glaive, allow the use of an additional feat to make it "finessable".