Are Hit Points necessary?

As I see it, the purpose of hit points originally was to give players a resource to manage. The increases by level made higher level characters' fates less dependent on chance.

One can effectively have "hit points" by different names. In some games, players spend a single "game currency" on other things in addition to avoiding getting killed.

RuneQuest has HP by that very name, but the approach is notably different. Even a "high level" character faces a probability of getting killed by almost any blow. Indeed, a very experienced one is more likely to die from some ludicrously improbable cause -- because such causes get more opportunities to have the dice fall their way.

A hefty HP "buffer" thus is conducive to a game that combines a lot of fighting with a lot of long-term character development. The "roll a die and maybe die" approach is conducive to the proverb that "there are are many old adventurers, and many bold adventurers -- but not many old, bold adventurers!"
 

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I was just wondering from all of you if you think hit points are a necessary component for d20 games or if you think that a different system for representing a character's overall measure of damage would be better?

Me, I hate hit points. They are a nuisance and an old Sacred Cow that has been kept around for decades but there are always arguments about what they really mean or represent, and despite this we have used them for decades because, well, I guess for no better reason than just because that's how it's always been, and thats a very crappy reason to keep using a system like that where there could be a better method to use.

I just don't know right now what that other measure of damage would be, beyond taking the Condition Track from SWSE and modifying it somehow.

My other huge beef with them is the ever present escalation of hit points that keep going up with each level, but that's me. I might not be so bothered by them if there was a d20 game that didn't have such an escalation of hit points but so far that hasn't been made, or if it has, I might not know about it.

So.....are they necessary?
Of course not. Unearthed Arcana has, if I remember correctly, both the M&M damage save, and the wound/vitality points as optional alternatives to hit points.

Personally, though... I find both of 'em more trouble than their worth. I used to be anti-HP, but I made my peace with 'em long ago. They're just too danged easy to be easily replaced.
 

Celebrim said:
It is absolutely untrue that the reason hit points persist is that they are 'sacred cow' that people keep using because they haven't considered the alternatives.
It is my impression that Dave Arneson's prototype Blackmoor campaign used an approach more like RuneQuest's. Hit points were set (rather than increasing), and divided among hit locations. Higher-level figures got better saving throws to avoid damage, but "even the mighty Smaug could fall to a single arrow in the right place".

That was carried over partly to the original D&D set in the "critical hit" rules for aerial combat, and Supplement II (Blackmoor) gave hit location tables.

Hit points themselves were an elaboration upon the "multiple kills" system in Chainmail. When normal men fought a Hero, they had to score 4 kills in a single round to bring him down -- or else he shrugged off their blows! (On the other hand, a single toss of the dice on the Fantasy Combat Table could mean a Hero killed a Dragon or vice versa.)
 

1Mac said:
I'm saying there are systems that involve less bookkeeping than hit points!
Unfortunately, all you really manage is arbitrarily to call your points "not hit points". They in fact require exactly as much bookkeeping by any name!

I'm not sure there's been anything really new in this field in the past quarter century or so.
 
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Here's a possible idea. The basic idea is to keep the whole concept of "hit points" == "plot armor / being able to avoid getting hit", but to make this concept explicit in the system, and to generalize it in a way that allows for more "logical" effects.

Basically, here's the way it works:

1. You have "hit points" (HP) as normal, with ways of gaining them back, etc. The rate and method of gaining them back depends on what kind of system you want - harder to gain back means more emphasis on avoiding combat, etc.

2. Here's the core of the system. Each attack coming in (that didn't completely "miss") is characterized by an ordered pair (X, C), where X is a number of "hit points", and C is a condition (like that your leg is broken, or you are blinded, etc.) Now the key is that when you get hit, you can choose either to accept condition C, or to spend X hit points to cancel the effect. You can only spend hit points to cancel the effect if you have enough hit points remaining. If you cancel the effect then you have to narrate how you managed to narrowly avoid the attack. Optionally there may be other restrictions, like maybe you can't cancel it if you are unconscious.

---

Of course, if C always equals "you become dead/unconscious" then this reduces to the standard hit point system. But there are other ways to use this:

1. One common criticism of some combat systems (at least I've heard it w.r.t. 4e) is that certain powers, like disarming enemies or gazes that turn people to stone, are desired for thematic reasons but are hard to implement because they can effectively bypass the hit point system to disable combatants, thus making the powers overpowered. With this system, it is possible to implement these more fairly: let's say a normal attack to kill has a lower X value but its C effect is "target is dead", while a disarm attack has a higher X value but its C effect is "target is disarmed." Then players would have an incentive to use the disarm power because it forces a choice between being disarmed and taking lots of damage, but it wouldn't just be able to neutralize the BBEG in one hit.

2. It reduces the impact of the "death spiral" because you have to get through all the enemy's hit points before you can inflict crippling conditions on them without their consent. But it allows for the possibility of injuries with interesting effects during combat, and adds strategy - do I spend HP to avoid the condition, or do I take the condition and save my HP to avoid a worse condition in the future? (IIRC, there was a thread or two in the 4e house rule section about systems where you can coluntarily take a 'wound' to get back hit points - this effectively makes similar tradeoffs a core part of the system.)

3. It could provide a unified way of representing defenses. For example armor could be HP that can only be used against physical attacks; an "amulet of magical protection" could be HP that can only be used against magic, etc. This would eliminate or reduce the need for lots of different defense mechanics like AC, different defense values, saves, spell resistance, etc.

4. It would avoid the problem of "If 'hitting' someone on the attack roll doesn't represent an actual physical 'hit', then how come my poison-tipped arrow still poisons the target on a 'hit'?" In a situation like that, the poisoning would be in the C effect, so he would only be poisoned if he didn't spend the HP to avoid it (i.e. accepted the actual physical 'hit').

5. If desired, some effects would have other "costs" that need to be paid to avoid their C effects, rather than just hit point expenditure. For example a fireball might make you move out of its AoE (to "dodge" it) in addition to paying thie hit points. So if you were immobilized you couldn't pay that cost and would have to take the C effect. More combo opportunities.
 

Here's a possible idea. The basic idea is to keep the whole concept of "hit points" == "plot armor / being able to avoid getting hit", but to make this concept explicit in the system, and to generalize it in a way that allows for more "logical" effects.

Basically, here's the way it works:

1. You have "hit points" (HP) as normal, with ways of gaining them back, etc. The rate and method of gaining them back depends on what kind of system you want - harder to gain back means more emphasis on avoiding combat, etc.

2. Here's the core of the system. Each attack coming in (that didn't completely "miss") is characterized by an ordered pair (X, C), where X is a number of "hit points", and C is a condition (like that your leg is broken, or you are blinded, etc.) Now the key is that when you get hit, you can choose either to accept condition C, or to spend X hit points to cancel the effect. You can only spend hit points to cancel the effect if you have enough hit points remaining. If you cancel the effect then you have to narrate how you managed to narrowly avoid the attack. Optionally there may be other restrictions, like maybe you can't cancel it if you are unconscious.

---

Of course, if C always equals "you become dead/unconscious" then this reduces to the standard hit point system. But there are other ways to use this:

1. One common criticism of some combat systems (at least I've heard it w.r.t. 4e) is that certain powers, like disarming enemies or gazes that turn people to stone, are desired for thematic reasons but are hard to implement because they can effectively bypass the hit point system to disable combatants, thus making the powers overpowered. With this system, it is possible to implement these more fairly: let's say a normal attack to kill has a lower X value but its C effect is "target is dead", while a disarm attack has a higher X value but its C effect is "target is disarmed." Then players would have an incentive to use the disarm power because it forces a choice between being disarmed and taking lots of damage, but it wouldn't just be able to neutralize the BBEG in one hit.

2. It reduces the impact of the "death spiral" because you have to get through all the enemy's hit points before you can inflict crippling conditions on them without their consent. But it allows for the possibility of injuries with interesting effects during combat, and adds strategy - do I spend HP to avoid the condition, or do I take the condition and save my HP to avoid a worse condition in the future? (IIRC, there was a thread or two in the 4e house rule section about systems where you can coluntarily take a 'wound' to get back hit points - this effectively makes similar tradeoffs a core part of the system.)

3. It could provide a unified way of representing defenses. For example armor could be HP that can only be used against physical attacks; an "amulet of magical protection" could be HP that can only be used against magic, etc. This would eliminate or reduce the need for lots of different defense mechanics like AC, different defense values, saves, spell resistance, etc.

4. It would avoid the problem of "If 'hitting' someone on the attack roll doesn't represent an actual physical 'hit', then how come my poison-tipped arrow still poisons the target on a 'hit'?" In a situation like that, the poisoning would be in the C effect, so he would only be poisoned if he didn't spend the HP to avoid it (i.e. accepted the actual physical 'hit').

5. If desired, some effects would have other "costs" that need to be paid to avoid their C effects, rather than just hit point expenditure. For example a fireball might make you move out of its AoE (to "dodge" it) in addition to paying thie hit points. So if you were immobilized you couldn't pay that cost and would have to take the C effect. More combo opportunities.
Dang, when did I give you XP before? Nice approach.
 

The hit-or-consequence system is perhaps too narrative and freeform for the standard D&D game (to implement it, you should write a limited list of consequences that can be applied to specific attacks), but it is indeed a great idea.
It reminds me of FATE 3.0 (great game), where it is used also in the social conflicts.
 


Unfortunately, all you really manage is arbitrarily to call your points "not hit points". They in fact require exactly as much bookkeeping by any name!
Not if you can get the same results with fewer of them. Managing dozens of "hit units," by any name, requires more bookkeeping than managing fewer than ten.
 

By the way, I like Alex's idea, particularly because you could build it with fewer "hit points" than we are accustomed to.

One downside might be a possibly proliferation of conditions, in the "scared, frightened, panicked" sense. If every attack and power had its own unique condition, that would be overwhelming. You could probably winnow the list down so that every unique attack results in one (or possibly more) of a very small number of conditions.
 

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