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Are Knights and Cavaliers the same thing?

Voadam

Legend
The justification for having both a cavalier and a knight class is to have two mechanically distinct classes that share similar descriptive flavor.

The 3.5 knight had all sort of powers for challenging opponents and forcing them to fight the knight. The 1e cavalier was basically a specialized heavy armor cavalry man with nobility and honor restrictions. I believe there were 3e cavalier prestige classes that focused on heavy cavalry mounted combat, essentially updating the 1e cavalier in a mechanically different way from the PHII knight. Very different mechanical implementations of the knight concept that are both valid to have side by side and that might appeal to different styles of play or players.

I'm trying to remember if the 4e essentials defender fighter option was called the knight or if that was a paladin build.
 

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Celebrim

Legend
I guess what I'm trying to say is, can anyone successfully justify the existence of BOTH a Cavalier AND a Knight class in the same game? If so, how?

They are justified only when the mechanics of your game are so inflexible, and the foresight of the designers so limited, that existing base class prevent you from creating a character with the archetype.

Which is as much as to say that the presence of either in your game represents in my opinion the existence of a flaw in your design.

I believe one need only a single class that is built on the idea, "Skilled at martial arts", to cover the fighter, man-at-arms, soldier, knight, monk, samurai, cavalier, warlord, marshal, captain, kensai, duelist, etc. Mechanical diversity for its own sake is a bad thing to have a in game, and well designed base class ought to be able to diversify sufficiently through the application of base mechanics rather than diversification of class abilities particular to each class.

Beyond that, I agree with the claim that 'knight' is more accurately a statement of rank which may or may not equate to being a horseman depending on the sort of society that you have, while a cavalier is a sort of soldier.
 

Morrus

Well, that was fun
Staff member
They are justified only when the mechanics of your game are so inflexible, and the foresight of the designers so limited, that existing base class prevent you from creating a character with the archetype.

Which is as much as to say that the presence of either in your game represents in my opinion the existence of a flaw in your design.

Every game is different. Flexibility isn't a good or bad thing. Chess is inflexible, and it's awesome. D&D is in the mid-range of flexibility. It is what it is.
 

Tuzenbach

First Post
I believe one need only a single class that is built on the idea, "Skilled at martial arts", to cover the fighter, man-at-arms, soldier, knight, monk, samurai, cavalier, warlord, marshal, captain, kensai, duelist, etc.


LoL, there's a "man-at-arms" class? And somebody distinguished that from the fighter?! HOW!?!?!



And you left out grenadiers, dragoons, skirmishers, berserkers, grapplers, and the other thing..... :p
 

Celebrim

Legend
Every game is different. Flexibility isn't a good or bad thing. Chess is inflexible, and it's awesome. D&D is in the mid-range of flexibility. It is what it is.

Failed analogy. Chess is inflexible, sure, because it's not a RP game, but an abstract war game. RPGs in general need to be more flexible that chess. How flexible? Well, I believe we can agree that they need to be at least flexible enough to cover the needs of their genera. More flexibility wouldn't be a bad thing, but it might come with a cost in some other area.

And that's really where your analysis falls down. I don't agree that flexibility is in and of itself neutral. I think that it is a good thing all on its own. However, increased flexibility comes with costs. For example, increased flexibility in chess might comes with increased complexity, decreased focus of play, and decreased game balance. Since chess is a game that is intended to be an elegant two person competitive game, increasing flexibility at the cost of those strengths might be poor design. Chess for example has barely a page of rules. 3.X D&D on the other hand eventually reached a rule set in the 10's of thousands of pages, in part because it was prizing flexibility. 3.X gave tons of options to players to create all sorts of different archetypes. But it did so at the expense of increasing complexity, decreasing balance, and rules bloat - all of which are negatives in and of themselves.

If in fact you could achieve the same level of flexibility and freedom to play any archetype with a smaller rules set, that had more balance, this would in general be a good thing. One thousand different classes means 3000 different pages of rules all on its own. Yet a quick survey of the classes shows that the vast majority of them are very similar, and the vast majority of the PrC's in common use are even more simple. Further, a quick survey shows that many archetypes were revisited several times with slightly different mechanics often overlapping and stacking mechanics. And even if flexibility was in and of itself neutral, if that was the only way to bring it about, it would be on the net a negative.

Class systems themselves have good and bad features. If the class system becomes too costly, it's worth considering a skill based design. If your classes proliferate too much, it's worth considering taking two similar classes and merging them into a single class that can largely simulate either one through build choices. My feeling is that somewhere around 12-20 classes in your system (the exact number might depend on your other system details), you're doing it wrong and rather than keeping piling on the classes you need to revise your original classes.

In my opinion, in a system like 3.X that didn't happen for reasons that have nothing to do with good game design. First, there was the economic consideration - more pages of rules meant more books to sell and more profits. And secondly, they were in a situation where patching the system by extending it cost less than revising what was already out there to meet new standards. So while it was obvious from a very early point that the 3.X fighter had too conservative of a design, it was easier to replace or enhance the concept through extensions than revise the base class even though the later would have produced a better design.

The various reboots to 3.X (Pathfinder, 4e, 5e) all attempt to address that concern in their own way.
 

Celebrim

Legend
LoL, there's a "man-at-arms" class? And somebody distinguished that from the fighter?! HOW!?!?!

I know there is one in a third party source book. I wouldn't be too surprised if there was a WotC one. In essence, though I don't remember the details, it was an attempt to patch the fighter with a PrC in a way very similar to Pathfinder's fighter patches the 3.X fighter with a new base class.

And you left out grenadiers, dragoons, skirmishers, berserkers, grapplers, and the other thing..... :p

And specific classes for gladiators, mercenaries, weapon masters, pit fighters, archers, dervishes, crusaders, sohei, ronin and masters of every single individual weapon including at times multiple classes for specific styles of using a weapon (a knife thrower and a knife fighter) along with literally hundreds or thousands of classes with made up names to fit narrow fighting archetypes so specific and obscure and rules/system dependent that no common term for the concept existed to use.
 

Tuzenbach

First Post
And specific classes for gladiators, mercenaries, weapon masters, pit fighters, archers, dervishes, crusaders, sohei, ronin and masters of every single individual weapon including at times multiple classes for specific styles of using a weapon (a knife thrower and a knife fighter) along with literally hundreds or thousands of classes with made up names to fit narrow fighting archetypes so specific and obscure and rules/system dependent that no common term for the concept existed to use.


You mean, like, the "Javelineer"?! :lol:
 

Morrus

Well, that was fun
Staff member
And that's really where your analysis falls down. I don't agree that flexibility is in and of itself neutral.

Yes, I know you don't. That's why I wrote a post saying that I don't agree that flexibility is in and of itself not neutral. I'm fine with tightly delineated RPGs, especially genre specific ones. I also enjoy broader games.
 

Celebrim

Legend
Yes, I know you don't. That's why I wrote a post saying that I don't agree that flexibility is in and of itself not neutral. I'm fine with tightly delineated RPGs, especially genre specific ones. I also enjoy broader games.

That's not the same thing. I know why you wrote a post saying that you don't agree that flexibility is in and of itself not a positive thing. Which is why I wrote a post saying that you'd still have to agree that a game had to be at least flexible enough to cover the needs of its genre even if you claimed flexibility in and of itself brought no value to a game. And though it isn't explicit, you appear in the above post to be doing just that. If flexibility is truly a neutral thing, then it wouldn't matter if your system wasn't flexible enough to cover the needs of your genera.

So sure, I don't have to agree that every game needs be perfectly and fully broad in order to hold my position. I also am fine with tightly delineated games. Indeed, I've written elsewhere that no system should strive to be truly universal, because the price it pays to achieve such perfect flexibility involves too much sacrifice in other areas.

If you're way of looking at the world is that even good things carry a price, you don't need to buy into the idea that there is "never too much of a good thing".
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
I guess what I'm trying to say is, can anyone successfully justify the existence of BOTH a Cavalier AND a Knight class in the same game? If so, how?
I'm trying to remember if the 4e essentials defender fighter option was called the knight or if that was a paladin build.
Essentials (2010) had both a Knight(Fighter) and Cavalier(Paladin) sub-class. The Knight was a tank-fighter: heavy armor, shield, & agro vs adjacent enemies. The Cavalier was a Paladin w/magic mount, IIRC (and I may not RC).

So Mike Mearls thought he could justify it. 5e has an 'Eldritch Knight' fighter archetype. I don't believe it's used 'Cavalier' for anything yet, but I could be wrong...

1) Which build was more powerful? The 1E Cavalier or the 3.5E Knight?
Relative to, say, the bog standard fighter in the same edition? The Cavalier. Relative to eachother, it's hard to say, there were some meaningful differences between editions. The 3.5 Knight was, like the Essentials Knight(Fighter), a tank with an attempt at an agro mechanic.

2) Did the two respective builds have ANYTHING in common, or were the powers/abilities completely different from one another?
Preference for heavy armor. :shrug:

3) Which was *better*? I.e., which of the two builds properly captured the overall "spirit" of the class?
1e Cavalier was closer to a stereotypical 'knight in shining armor' than the 3.5 Knight, I'd say.

4) Did 4E have an equivalent?
The 4e 'Guardian' (Sword & board) Fighter build was a bit like the 3.5 knight, and very good at being 'sticky' and actually protecting allies. 4e de-emphasized mounted combat and equipment-over-character-ability, so didn't really have anything quite like the Cavalier.

How about 5E? Will there be an eventual 5E equivalent if none currently exists?
5e has the Eldritch Knight archetype of the Fighter. It does not have anything called a Cavalier. I don't recall seeing anything that would make either of the other two archetypes - the Champion and Battlemaster - Knight- or Cavalier- like, specifically. 5e isn't showing signs of the kind of rapid roll-out of player options we had with 3.x/Pathfinder/4e/Essentials, so probably nothing right away. 5e, though, does have 'Noble' background, tack that onto a Fighter, and it's pretty knight-like, in concept. There's not much to backgrounds, so a Cavalier background might show up some day, maybe in a free pdf like the one that dropped recently for Princess of the Apocalypse themed AL PCs.


Also, for some strange reason, every modern version of D&D has gotten really squirrely and nervous over the Lance. As if there was something innately wrong with a long spear used in one hand. I don't know what brought on that neurosis, but Lances have been oddly absent or restricted starting with 3.5 D&D.
 
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