Are lessons learned through D&D?

This thread is starting to go a bad direction. The mod don't like it when you go into real world religion, because saying something about religion A, B, or C will inevitably insult something that is very important to members of the board. Then we get into a big flame war, the mods have to threaten us, then we come to our senses and start loving each other again.

Why don't we just skip to the end.

Personally, moral guidelines in a fantasy game are different and unrelated to ones in real life. Good useful systems of belief in the real world are not nessicarily good or useful in fantasy, and vice versa.
 

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maddman75 said:
Personally, moral guidelines in a fantasy game are different and unrelated to ones in real life. Good useful systems of belief in the real world are not nessicarily good or useful in fantasy, and vice versa.

I'll agree with that 100%.

-Fletch!
 

D&D or fantasy/sci-fi books has taught me zilch about morality. 13 years of catholic school and parents, extended family did that.
But it did get me out of my school boy shell and to socialize with peers.

In the last ten years when I've moved to four different cities, (for work, school, work, & work) it game me a chance again to meet people that I would never have met for any other reason.

These may not be earth shattering reasons, but, the game has have helped me in my life have a lot of fun.
 
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maddman75 said:

Personally, moral guidelines in a fantasy game are different and unrelated to ones in real life. Good useful systems of belief in the real world are not nessicarily good or useful in fantasy, and vice versa.

I've seen groups melt down because one player betrayed others "in-character". Even though it is just a game people still would not play with that person. It seems that there are cases of real world morals relating to fantasy.
 

Do learn anything from D&D? It is an interesting question, and as I compose my response, I am surprised by the fact that the answer I am currently submitting is different than my gut reaction.

My initial response was yes, it has taught me a lot of things: math skills, organizational skills, social skills, etc. Upon reflection, however, I would have to say no. D&D doesn’t really teach anybody anything. It may reinforce math and social skills, it may even broaden historical knowledge, but it doesn’t actually teach anything.

For example, take mathematical probabilities. I didn’t learn about probabilities from D&D. D&D provided me an entertaining way to apply what I learned in school. It provided me a way to exercise those skills, but it didn’t teach them to me. It probably didn’t teach them to anyone on these boards. Even if you were really young when you started playing, the best it could have done was introduce the concept. Saying that D&D can teach someone probability concepts is kind of like saying that playing Monopoly over and over can teach someone accounting skills. :) If one’s mathematical skills are limited to what you use in D&D, then that person has command of only the most basic of math skills (that goes for Monopoly and accounting skills as well :) ).

D&D doesn’t teach organizational skills. It provides us with an opportunity to practice them, but there was never a chapter in any version of the rulebooks that discussed how to properly use a Franklin Planner. :) It was from your family -- or from the classroom -- where you learned to clean your room, put your toys away, to write legibly, etc.

As for social and moral lessons, again, I believe that it can reinforce both good and bad tendencies, but it teaches nothing. It doesn’t teach that working together is generally beneficial. It can reinforce that thought, but all of us were already familiar with the concept long before we ever picked up a d20. It doesn’t make the nonviolent violent, nor the socially withdrawn into social butterflies, but it can reinforce.

Oni was right earlier when he said, “D&D doesn't teach so much as reveal what you brought to the table in the first place.” This true, not only for moral lessons, but for more concrete lessons as well. Actually, this is true of almost any recreational/social activity.

I can see SemperJase that you feel very strongly about your position. Unless, I am just completely missing your point, you are kind of making a nature vs. nurture argument, with you taking a very “nurture” stance. As more of a “nature” supporter, I don’t completely agree with your point of view, however, I would concede that for those of a disturbed nature, playing evil characters – even smart, subtle, sophisticated evil characters – probably isn’t beneficial for them or those they come in contact with.
 
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Personally, I don't think that characters that have black and white morality are very compelling characters- whether its a game, book, or movie. People are more than steroetypical behaviors or moral absolutes, and I feel representing fictional characters as one-dimensional takes a lot of depth out of a game. After all, paladins who never do wrong, or evil wizards who always torture babies are much less interesting than the cleric who struggles to adhere to his faith, even though he knows his views would be considered somewhat heretical to his church.

I don't think that playing evil characters modifies our actions in real life in any meaningful way. After all, RPGs are just games, and we know no matter how bad things get in a game, it is still just a GAME, and that our actions in the game have no consequences in real life. I think most gamers have a good enough grip on reality to realize that games offer a chance to escape to another world for a little while- and to try things that would not be possible IRL. Exploring the darker side of human nature is healthy- it makes us examine our beliefs and convictions from a different perspective, and often reinforces our morality. Anyone who denies ever having had "evil" thoughts about something and not fantasizing about it is simply lying. Channeling than energy into a harmless and creative outlet like gaming is a lot more healthy than building up all the frustration and anger inside, and you might learn something about yourself to boot. I know the most memorable and interesting characters I have played over the years have been evil ones- usually LE or NE by D&D standards.

As for what I have learned from D&D:

1. It has made me re-examine my own beliefs many times by placing my character in difficult situations, and putting the responsibility for the outcome on me- not transfering blame to others.

2. I have become better at problem solving and logical thought.

3. It has taught me empathy for other people's feelings since I can distance myself from my own POV and look at the situation from another angle.

4. Most importantly- don't screw with the DM and freeze his favorite white d20 in an ice cube- that just begs for grudge monsters!!! :D
 

I've seen groups melt down because one player betrayed others "in-character". Even though it is just a game people still would not play with that person. It seems that there are cases of real world morals relating to fantasy.

Uhh, no... that's a case of one player being a jerk and the other players not wanting to assosiate with him because he, as a person, is a jerk. It's not a case of real world morals relating to fantasy.
 

JohnBrown said:
Do learn anything from D&D? It is an interesting question, and as I compose my response, I am surprised by the fact that the answer I am currently submitting is different than my gut reaction.

My initial response was yes, it has taught me a lot of things: math skills, organizational skills, social skills, etc. Upon reflection, however, I would have to say no. D&D doesn’t really teach anybody anything. It may reinforce math and social skills, it may even broaden historical knowledge, but it doesn’t actually teach anything.

For example, take mathematical probabilities. I didn’t learn about probabilities from D&D. D&D provided me an entertaining way to apply what I learned in school.

And I would disagree profoundly with this. Anything that causes you to go off and research something, to broaden your horizon even slightly teaches you a lot. Initially learning that you hold the key to your own education is an important lesson that many people unfortunately never learn. After that, every pebble that starts an avalance of learning if really a gem in disguise. Without that little push, you would be now as you were then, and you would never have gotten better. To not credit gaming, or any other stimulus, for driving you to learn, practice, and learn more is to cheapen the experience for yourself and others.

If you used D&D to practice probability analysis skills that you had already learned, then you must have started playing pretty late in life. I've been gaming for over 2/3rd of my life, and it has always driven me to learn more, know more, experience more than my peers. I still 'learn stuff' for no other reason than it is fun. I would not be that person now if not for gaming.

JohnBrown said:
D&D doesn’t teach organizational skills. It provides us with an opportunity to practice them...

Who learns organizational skills in 4th grade? The Franklin Covey seminars weren't until 6th grade...

JohnBrown said:
As for social and moral lessons, again, I believe that it can reinforce both good and bad tendencies, but it teaches nothing. It doesn’t teach that working together is generally beneficial. It can reinforce that thought, but all of us were already familiar with the concept long before we ever picked up a d20.

Again, it seems like you had a late start. Gaming allows you to experiment with your moral compass when you are just figuring it out. Oh, parents and teachers have some input, but the responsibility is on the individual to accept that instruction, believe it and reinforce it, or tweak it as needed to make life better (or just bearable, if that is an individual's lot). Pushing that responsibility on others is irresponsible, and it's not entirely gracious to squander the effort that those people spent on you.

And when you see what 'bad' can do to your friends, and see by experience that 'good' and cooperation make everybody stronger, that is the value of gaming. All of those parents that forbade their kids from playing D&D in the 80's and 90's did more damage than they can possibly comprehend. But that is the risk of being a parent, as well.

JohnBrown said:
I would concede that for those of a disturbed nature, playing evil characters – even smart, subtle, sophisticated evil characters – probably isn’t beneficial for them or those they come in contact with.

I think almost anyone would agree with that. Intent is really the key, and if you have no particular intent, that is almost as bad as having evil intent. If you have a goal, you are probably headed on the right path.

-Fletch!
 
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Mkletch,

I agree with your statements above that touch on how D&D can stimulate academic interest in many people. It was not my intent to state otherwise. I would disagree, however, that inspiration is the same as education. Both are important to a person’s growth, but they are not the same. A person may become inspired to learn more about real medieval cultures from playing D&D, and thus educate themselves, but D&D certainly doesn’t provide you anything but the vaguest hints about how real medieval cultures developed, operated, and evolved. You have to go elsewhere beyond the game to find the facts, D&D only provides the myths.

Many astronauts and astronomers claim to have been inspired by Star Trek, and if it hadn’t been for that show, many of them wouldn’t be in their respective fields. I don’t think anyone would suggest that Star Trek is a good example of real space sciences, however.

As a child, I was inspired to learn more about computers from playing Pong and Space Invaders. Playing these games, however, did not impart to me any computer programming knowledge; only years of education and work in the field did that. Did Space Invaders play an important part in my development? Yes, (as embarrassing as that is to admit :) ), but it didn’t actually teach me anything.

Inspiration and Education. Both important. Both work together. Both very different.

As for how long I have been playing D&D, a little over 22 years (I will be 35 in a couple of weeks). Using the term “probability analysis” was mistake on my part in my earlier post. No actual probability analysis actually takes place in D&D. Simple fraction to decimal comparison (1/10 is the same as 10%, 1 in 20 is same as a 5% chance, etc.) is about all that is used playing D&D, at least from a general perspective. My first exposure to this was during math lessons in the 3rd grade. The concept of the Bell Curve? I first learned of that (if my memory serves) in 5th grade, right around the time I started playing D&D. I would suspect that most others have similar educational experiences. D&D gave me an opportunity to apply that knowledge, but it didn’t teach it to me.

Concerning the issue of moral and social lessons, I agree with the spirit of your statement, and certainly wouldn’t want to dismiss any positive effects that D&D has had on your life, but none of my important life lessons have ever occurred from the act of role-playing. Positive social concepts, such as teamwork, mutual support, being a good loser and a gracious winner, can just as easily be reinforced through any athletic activity, or from even going out in the work place and getting a job (which certainly had a more profound affect on my life than playing D&D ever has :) ).

You are right in saying social interaction can teach a person many things (good and bad), and that D&D provides an opportunity for the interaction. It is the interaction with other people – not the game itself – that is educational, however. Any activity that provides the same type of interaction will provide roughly the same education. Going out and experiencing other cultures, and other points of view will impart much more knowledge than sitting around a table pretending to do so ever will.
 

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