Are Marilith's really CR17?
- Thread starter maggot
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Plane Sailing
Astral Admin - Mwahahaha!
maggot said:
She was a fool to be caught in a situation where she could lose initiative and be completely unprepared. Where were her underlings? what were her network of spies doing? What was her defensive position like (as demon generals you would think she would be an excellent tactician and strategician, no?)
Cheers
Kae'Yoss
First Post
A thing the DM always should remember: play monsters smart! Mariliths have Int 18, Wis 18, so they are quite smart and experienced. They don't rush the enemy, they use their surroundings for their advantage.
Since I started DM'ing I learnt that using a monster's resources and playing it with a little tactics, it will suddenly live up to the CR it has been given!
Since I started DM'ing I learnt that using a monster's resources and playing it with a little tactics, it will suddenly live up to the CR it has been given!
Re: Re: Are Marilith's really CR17?
Do you think her CR17 reflects a network of spies and underlings? Wouldn't her spies and underlings have there own CRs to account for their abilities?
The only underlings that she can control through her own powers are undead via her "animate dead" ability (not a threat at all) and more demons or so she can summon for an hour once per day. The latter ability only works 50% of the time, and lasts but an hour. She can't have another friend around all the time.
Maybe we screwed up and she should have had more companions. Still it would have come down to: wizard casts haste on barbarian. Cleric destroys undead. Barbarian tumbles through remaining opponents and lays smack down on demon. Demon dead. Not much of a CR17 encounter when level 11 wizard losses a spells and level 13 barbarian uses a rage.
I'm thought that CR17 should show her power on her own. Regardless of other creatures around, regardless of equipment. No one says that Dragons need to be wearing mithral breastplates to live up to there CR, or that a level 17 cleric should have an army of spies to be a threat to a 17th level party.
As it was a supposedly CR 17 creature had half the hit points of a 17th level cleric, far less spell ability, far less feats and combat ablity. The marilith is a total wimp.
Plane Sailing said:
Do you think her CR17 reflects a network of spies and underlings? Wouldn't her spies and underlings have there own CRs to account for their abilities?
The only underlings that she can control through her own powers are undead via her "animate dead" ability (not a threat at all) and more demons or so she can summon for an hour once per day. The latter ability only works 50% of the time, and lasts but an hour. She can't have another friend around all the time.
Maybe we screwed up and she should have had more companions. Still it would have come down to: wizard casts haste on barbarian. Cleric destroys undead. Barbarian tumbles through remaining opponents and lays smack down on demon. Demon dead. Not much of a CR17 encounter when level 11 wizard losses a spells and level 13 barbarian uses a rage.
I'm thought that CR17 should show her power on her own. Regardless of other creatures around, regardless of equipment. No one says that Dragons need to be wearing mithral breastplates to live up to there CR, or that a level 17 cleric should have an army of spies to be a threat to a 17th level party.
As it was a supposedly CR 17 creature had half the hit points of a 17th level cleric, far less spell ability, far less feats and combat ablity. The marilith is a total wimp.
Elder-Basilisk
First Post
The Marilith should get the quicken spell like ability feat and use it extensively. A quickened teleport without error+full attack action should be enough to take down the party's wizard. She can probably handle the rogue and the cleric in melee which means she'll need to use some kind of will save ability on the fighter or the barbarian.
In general though, I'd say that there were a couple problems with the encounter described.
1. The Marilith didn't have enough cronies. Fights against single unsupported villains are rarely as challenging as fights against groups of bad guys. When the PCs get 4 or more actions for every one of the bad guy's actions, things get ugly very quickly.
2. The Marilith doesn't have enough hit points. Interestingly, that's true of almost all of the melee demons and devils. If they can last a couple rounds and start using their spell like abilities, they slaughter parties; otherwise they go down like chumps because they've only enough hit points to take one or two solid hits. Giving them a better con score would go a long way toward solving this.
In general though, I'd say that there were a couple problems with the encounter described.
1. The Marilith didn't have enough cronies. Fights against single unsupported villains are rarely as challenging as fights against groups of bad guys. When the PCs get 4 or more actions for every one of the bad guy's actions, things get ugly very quickly.
2. The Marilith doesn't have enough hit points. Interestingly, that's true of almost all of the melee demons and devils. If they can last a couple rounds and start using their spell like abilities, they slaughter parties; otherwise they go down like chumps because they've only enough hit points to take one or two solid hits. Giving them a better con score would go a long way toward solving this.
Jeremy
Explorer
12th level + surprise round = death
More to the point, if you are too low on the init scale, you are still dead. Pc's have buffs, magical items, tactics, teamworks, and 4 to 12 turns between them depending on party size, cohorts, and haste. If they get to go before your critter and are already at range (especially if your critter is not already buffed) it is going to die.
Be it a balor, a dragon, or anything. Because until it gets a turn to do something, it's just a punching bag and it dies just like anything else. That's why scry/buff/teleports are so deadly.
That's why it's wise to divide your eggs up. Instead of one CR 17 Marillith you can use 4 cr 14 demons and a CR 15. If the pc's get the drop and the initiative, there will be death, but it won't be over just like that.
And as for Marillith's being CR 17, I can assure you, when they have the opportunity to teleport away at an instants notice, when they are correctly equipped and prepared having seen the PC's, they are a very deadly encounter. But you can't play them like orcs. They don't fight to the death, they don't wade in unprepared, they do value safety over pleasure, and they do think in the very long term.
Did the pc's just walk around a corner and there she was within charging distance? If they approached from a distance, why wasn't she invisible or prepared? etc.
More to the point, if you are too low on the init scale, you are still dead. Pc's have buffs, magical items, tactics, teamworks, and 4 to 12 turns between them depending on party size, cohorts, and haste. If they get to go before your critter and are already at range (especially if your critter is not already buffed) it is going to die.
Be it a balor, a dragon, or anything. Because until it gets a turn to do something, it's just a punching bag and it dies just like anything else. That's why scry/buff/teleports are so deadly.
That's why it's wise to divide your eggs up. Instead of one CR 17 Marillith you can use 4 cr 14 demons and a CR 15. If the pc's get the drop and the initiative, there will be death, but it won't be over just like that.
And as for Marillith's being CR 17, I can assure you, when they have the opportunity to teleport away at an instants notice, when they are correctly equipped and prepared having seen the PC's, they are a very deadly encounter. But you can't play them like orcs. They don't fight to the death, they don't wade in unprepared, they do value safety over pleasure, and they do think in the very long term.
Did the pc's just walk around a corner and there she was within charging distance? If they approached from a distance, why wasn't she invisible or prepared? etc.
ruleslawyer
Registered User
What Jeremy said.
Loss of init + single BBEG vs. party of adventurers = dead BBEG. Your PCs probably could have taken out a 20th-level wizard lich (CR 22!) in the same round given adequate preparation.
In general, I do think that demons are slightly over-CRed. My solution is to rebalance the CR by advancing my standard demons 50%. This makes the average marilith CR 18, but with the following stats:
Marilith
Large Outsider (Chaotic, Evil)
Hit Dice: 13d8+65 (123 hp)
Initiative: +2 (Dex)
Speed: 40 ft.
AC: 29 (-1 size, +2 Dex, +18 natural)
Attacks: Weapon +17/+12/+7 melee, 5 weapons +17 melee, tail slam +15 melee
Damage: Weapon 1d8+5, weapons 1d8+2, tail slam 4d6+2
Face/Reach: 5 ft. by 5 ft./10 ft.
Special Attacks: Spell-like abilities, improved grab, constrict 4d6+7, summon demon
Special Qualities: Damage reduction 20/+2, SR 26, poison and electricity immunity, cold, fire, and acid resistance 20, telepathy
Saves: Fort +13, Ref +10, Will +12
Abilities: Str 21, Dex 15, Con 21, Int 18, Wis 18, Cha 16
Skills: Bluff +19, Concentration +20, Hide +15, Listen +28, Move Silently +17, Scry +19, Search +19, Sense Motive +20, Spellcraft +18, Spot +29
Feats: Cleave, Multiattack, Multidexterity, Multiweapon Fighting, Power Attack, Quicken Spell-Like Ability
Climate/Terrain: Any land and underground
Organization: Solitary or pair
Challenge Rating: 18
Treasure: Standard coins; double goods; standard items, plus 1d4 magic weapons
Alignment: Always chaotic evil
Advancement: 14-27 HD (Huge)
Spell-Like Abilities: At will-animate dead, bestow curse, chaos hammer, cloudkill, comprehend languages, darkness, desecrate, detect good, detect law, detect magic, inflict serious wounds, magic circle against good (self only), magic weapon, project image, polymorph self, pyrotechnics, see invisibility, shatter, telekinesis, teleport without error (self plus 50 pounds of objects only), unholy aura, and unholy blight. These abilities are as the spells cast by a 13th-level sorcerer (save DC 13 + spell level).
Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, the marilith must hit a Medium-size or smaller opponent with its tail slam attack. If it succeeds, it can constrict.
Constrict (Ex): A marilith deals 4d6+7 points of damage with a successful grapple check against Medium-size or smaller creatures. The constricted creature must succeed at a Fortitude save (DC 19) or lose consciousness for at long as it remains in the coils and for 2d4 rounds thereafter.
Summon Demon (Sp): Once per day a marilith can attempt to summon 4d10 dretches, 1d4 hezrou, or one nalfeshnee with a 50% chance of success, or one glabrezu or another marilith with a 20% chance of success.
Telepathy (Su): Mariliths can communicate telepathically with any creature within 100 feet that has a language.
Skills: Mariliths receive a +8 racial bonus to Listen and Spot checks.
Feats: A marilith receives the Multidexteriry and Multiweapon Fighting feats as bonus feats. In combination with its natural abilities, these feats allow the marilith to attack with all its arms at no penalty.
So, for a +1 CR increase, you get 38 additional hp, +4 to all attacks (and an extra iterative attack), +2 to saves, 48 (!) extra skill points, and another feat. Not bad, eh?
Of course, you could seriously abuse the advancement rules by giving the marilith one more hit die, and bumping its size to Huge, which grants ability score increases, better natural armor, and more reach for no additional CR increase.
Incidentally, I'd like to see demons in 3.5 acquire the See in Darkness supernatural ability that devils possess. With that ability, the marilith becomes positively horrendous, since it can cloak itself in darkness, gaining total concealment, and then project an image of itself to wreak havoc on the party.
Loss of init + single BBEG vs. party of adventurers = dead BBEG. Your PCs probably could have taken out a 20th-level wizard lich (CR 22!) in the same round given adequate preparation.
In general, I do think that demons are slightly over-CRed. My solution is to rebalance the CR by advancing my standard demons 50%. This makes the average marilith CR 18, but with the following stats:
Marilith
Large Outsider (Chaotic, Evil)
Hit Dice: 13d8+65 (123 hp)
Initiative: +2 (Dex)
Speed: 40 ft.
AC: 29 (-1 size, +2 Dex, +18 natural)
Attacks: Weapon +17/+12/+7 melee, 5 weapons +17 melee, tail slam +15 melee
Damage: Weapon 1d8+5, weapons 1d8+2, tail slam 4d6+2
Face/Reach: 5 ft. by 5 ft./10 ft.
Special Attacks: Spell-like abilities, improved grab, constrict 4d6+7, summon demon
Special Qualities: Damage reduction 20/+2, SR 26, poison and electricity immunity, cold, fire, and acid resistance 20, telepathy
Saves: Fort +13, Ref +10, Will +12
Abilities: Str 21, Dex 15, Con 21, Int 18, Wis 18, Cha 16
Skills: Bluff +19, Concentration +20, Hide +15, Listen +28, Move Silently +17, Scry +19, Search +19, Sense Motive +20, Spellcraft +18, Spot +29
Feats: Cleave, Multiattack, Multidexterity, Multiweapon Fighting, Power Attack, Quicken Spell-Like Ability
Climate/Terrain: Any land and underground
Organization: Solitary or pair
Challenge Rating: 18
Treasure: Standard coins; double goods; standard items, plus 1d4 magic weapons
Alignment: Always chaotic evil
Advancement: 14-27 HD (Huge)
Spell-Like Abilities: At will-animate dead, bestow curse, chaos hammer, cloudkill, comprehend languages, darkness, desecrate, detect good, detect law, detect magic, inflict serious wounds, magic circle against good (self only), magic weapon, project image, polymorph self, pyrotechnics, see invisibility, shatter, telekinesis, teleport without error (self plus 50 pounds of objects only), unholy aura, and unholy blight. These abilities are as the spells cast by a 13th-level sorcerer (save DC 13 + spell level).
Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, the marilith must hit a Medium-size or smaller opponent with its tail slam attack. If it succeeds, it can constrict.
Constrict (Ex): A marilith deals 4d6+7 points of damage with a successful grapple check against Medium-size or smaller creatures. The constricted creature must succeed at a Fortitude save (DC 19) or lose consciousness for at long as it remains in the coils and for 2d4 rounds thereafter.
Summon Demon (Sp): Once per day a marilith can attempt to summon 4d10 dretches, 1d4 hezrou, or one nalfeshnee with a 50% chance of success, or one glabrezu or another marilith with a 20% chance of success.
Telepathy (Su): Mariliths can communicate telepathically with any creature within 100 feet that has a language.
Skills: Mariliths receive a +8 racial bonus to Listen and Spot checks.
Feats: A marilith receives the Multidexteriry and Multiweapon Fighting feats as bonus feats. In combination with its natural abilities, these feats allow the marilith to attack with all its arms at no penalty.
So, for a +1 CR increase, you get 38 additional hp, +4 to all attacks (and an extra iterative attack), +2 to saves, 48 (!) extra skill points, and another feat. Not bad, eh?
Of course, you could seriously abuse the advancement rules by giving the marilith one more hit die, and bumping its size to Huge, which grants ability score increases, better natural armor, and more reach for no additional CR increase.
Incidentally, I'd like to see demons in 3.5 acquire the See in Darkness supernatural ability that devils possess. With that ability, the marilith becomes positively horrendous, since it can cloak itself in darkness, gaining total concealment, and then project an image of itself to wreak havoc on the party.
Plane Sailing
Astral Admin - Mwahahaha!
Re: Re: Re: Are Marilith's really CR17?
No, but I quote "Mariliths are generals and tacticians, often rivalling Balors in sheer brilliance and cunning. Some also serve as chief lieutenants for major demon royalty".
So what on earth would one of these be doing slumming it on their own, with no backup no spies out, etc? At the very least I'd expect that she would have *all* her "at will" powers running and be sitting within a cloudkill cloud, but frankly I can't imagine a non-contrived scenario when she would put herself needlessly at such great risk.
maggot said:
No, but I quote "Mariliths are generals and tacticians, often rivalling Balors in sheer brilliance and cunning. Some also serve as chief lieutenants for major demon royalty".
So what on earth would one of these be doing slumming it on their own, with no backup no spies out, etc? At the very least I'd expect that she would have *all* her "at will" powers running and be sitting within a cloudkill cloud, but frankly I can't imagine a non-contrived scenario when she would put herself needlessly at such great risk.
