Are Marilith's really CR17?

[Saeviomagy]

The major problem with a LOT of critters in 3rd ed is that offensive power is rated highly, and defensive power is rated significantly less highly.

The simple fact of the matter is that unless a critter has hitpoints, or a very good chance to surprise it's opponents, all the offense in the world cannot save it. You're much better off just using a trap.

Example: The beholder. CR 13, and only 60 hps, and no significant defenses. 60! I've seen 9th level mages with that many hitpoints.

So why's it CR 13? Because it's dangerous if it ever actually gets a go.

Same goes for the maralith, or the medusa, or many undead critters (thanks to the turning power of the average cleric...)

 

[Simulacrum]

Umm drop mass haste for starters.
HASTE is completely broken, even the last friggin moron got that by now. There is a reason why they killed haste in 3.5e,
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Another tip: It doesnt take a genious to see that the marilith doesnt live up to it's CR when your gaming style is like this. (maxed out chars, you get buff, enemy is dumb, SPLATT!)
I never understood this sort of approach. Funny enough, everytime something like that got up in my early RPG days I (as player) was the first one who yelled: "holy crap this is stupid, I pity those poor BBEG so much I'll help them out in the next fights and show them some tricks...aww"
I think even players should be out for "balanced" play or there is no challenge to be won ultimately.
So I say if something like the marilith is extremly off their CR boost them significantly with Items and Henchmen.
I mean look at the players party: 4 people, everyone gets his share of money and items + synergy effect of spells and buffs = what CR?
Ok I dont blame it on the players, the CR system is very weak right now. Munchkinism is made way too easy too.
Did I mention that you should drop haste?

 

[Kalanyr]

Oh and to those who suggest armour, Outsiders aren't proficient with armour, bracers of armour could work though.

And haste as revised in 3.5e doesn't reduce damage output much at all it just makes the arcane caster feel kinda useless while the fighter still moves 30 feet and makes an FRA.

 

[Celtavian]

Re

In straight combat, mariliths are no where close to a CR 17. Given the full use of all their abilities, they are a powerful challenge.

Personally, I think they should scrap their current system of adding a big number to the CR of a creature that can gate in creatures. They should just give individual xp for all summoned or gated creatures save for those summoned by a Summon Monster spell since the duration is relatively short.

All other creatures summoned by gate, planar ally, or an outsiders summoning ability usually have an indefinite duration and should give xp to parties defeating them in battle. This would be a better system than inflating the CR of the creatures with this ability and would also do a great deal to balance the DM use of Planar Ally spells by villains.

 

[Simulacrum]

Oh and to those who suggest armour, Outsiders aren't proficient with armour, bracers of armour could work though.

And haste as revised in 3.5e doesn't reduce damage output much at all it just makes the arcane caster feel kinda useless while the fighter still moves 30 feet and makes an FRA.

Sorry you are wrong with both.
The removal of partial actions and the cut to size haste is can cut down the damage potential of an FIGHTER BIG TIME.
Dont forget the extra attack must be part of your attack action in contrast to the old haste that gave you a complete action (like partial charge etc) for free.
Doesnt take a genious to make the math.
Wizards are balanced now and nowhere near useless( just ask bards or rangers . It all depends on the game you are playing.
If you play with munchkinized gamemechanics than it's your fault, not that of the game.
I'm playing the game like it should be and it WORKS A OK.
Since haste and partial actions are gone many problems we had went away, and things started to feel *normal* again.
If you wanna cast more spells use the Simbul's spell sequencer spells. They are pretty balanced imho.

Outsider (depends on type) are armor proficient. The marilith for example is. And even if a creature isnt proficient with the armor, it doesnt prevent the monster from wearing it!
There is nothing wrong with equiping them with armor anyway, after all they get a few penalty's thats it!

 

[Kyramus]

you sure the marilith was killed and not the project image so that the real marilith could scope out the power of the pc's?


maybe she was setting that up with a simulacrum and she actually had wiz/sor spells?

or maybe she's scoping them and watching what si the most useful weapon/magic item to dispel magic or break or replace before she encounters them for real?

 

[Stalker0]

you sure the marilith was killed and not the project image so that the real marilith could scope out the power of the pc's?


maybe she was setting that up with a simulacrum and she actually had wiz/sor spells?

or maybe she's scoping them and watching what si the most useful weapon/magic item to dispel magic or break or replace before she encounters them for real?

ah, the beauty of dming. Completely screwing up, but then coming back later with such a perfect explanation that the players thought you had it planned the whole time

 

[maggot]

Gaming style

Another tip: It doesnt take a genious to see that the marilith doesnt live up to it's CR when your gaming style is like this. (maxed out chars, you get buff, enemy is dumb, SPLATT!)

Hmm. I don't remember stating our gaming style. It certainly isn't maxed out characters. We use low point buy for stats, no splatbooks, and the party has far less equipment than standard.

As for the enemy being dumb, I didn't say that either. She was actually being quite sneaky using her polymorph self ability until the gig was up. Spending her entire life hiding inside a cloudkill afraid some barbarian was going to kill her would be dumb.

Let me restate my initial query: What would you say the the CR of a marilith should be given her stats in the MM?

If you think she is CR17 if you give her some feat from splatbook X, what is her CR without it? If you think she is CR17 with 21 magic items, what is her CR without them?

 

[Simulacrum]

Re: Gaming style

Hmm. I don't remember stating our gaming style. It certainly isn't maxed out characters. We use low point buy for stats, no splatbooks, and the party has far less equipment than standard.

As for the enemy being dumb, I didn't say that either. She was actually being quite sneaky using her polymorph self ability until the gig was up. Spending her entire life hiding inside a cloudkill afraid some barbarian was going to kill her would be dumb.

Let me restate my initial query: What would you say the the CR of a marilith should be given her stats in the MM?

If you think she is CR17 if you give her some feat from splatbook X, what is her CR without it? If you think she is CR17 with 21 magic items, what is her CR without them?

Honestly 13 maybe 14, in a normal compaign without any *supplements*.
The problem with "powered" up campaings is that ALL party members get stronger and the CR's are not flexible enough to catch up on munchkinism (exept you throw TONS of magic items on just EVERY creature). For munchkin campaigns the CR would be like 12 for 1 character not 4.
Sorry that I jumped the gun, but I didnt meant it *personal*, I was generalizing.
Yeah but haste remains broken no matter how low the pointbuy gets